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new toy .......Villiers Mk15

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Re: new toy .......Villiers Mk15

Post by mike d on Tue Jun 05 2012, 16:59

were do you boys keep finding these engines from....
looks like you have the job well in hand there neville....
keep up the good work..
mike....

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Re: new toy .......Villiers Mk15

Post by hob on Tue Jun 05 2012, 17:16

Thanks Pete, just nipped out and removed the "dust cover" just as you said underneath ..........3 big cut outs Very Happy at least i know how to proceed next time i feel the urge to play Cool

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Re: new toy .......Villiers Mk15

Post by stationary stu on Wed Jun 06 2012, 10:33

Good to see you making progress Neville, see that bit you didn't want to take off held all the answers lol! lol! lol!

Nice one Pete, your a big help again. Thanks

Stu.

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Re: new toy .......Villiers Mk15

Post by hob on Thu Jun 07 2012, 18:17

Many thanks to Pete for the info, i have removed the dust cover and inside that everything is covered in a liberal film of oil Shocked Shocked either the seal is gone on the end of the crankshaft or someone went crazy with the oil can...................... next step will have to be removing the flywheel to clean it out and check the seal and get the spark working as my box of sparks got damp in the garage and ruined them Laughing


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Re: new toy .......Villiers Mk15

Post by 110samec on Fri Jun 08 2012, 18:51

Maybe a new head gasket would help with compression? My suffolk had low compression so I put a new cardboard gasket on held with grease and the result is good compression on it.

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Re: new toy .......Villiers Mk15

Post by stationary stu on Sat Jun 09 2012, 09:36

110samec wrote:Maybe a new head gasket would help with compression? My suffolk had low compression so I put a new cardboard gasket on held with grease and the result is good compression on it.

Sounds as if the gasket was blowing out that's how you lost the compression.

Stu.

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Re: new toy .......Villiers Mk15

Post by hob on Sat Jun 09 2012, 15:43

spent the afternoon looking for the missing spark.................took the flywheel off .........that looks ok after i wiped the oil off the inside, no rust on the magnets



cleaned the oil out of the points and cleaned up the points faces



set the points and plug gap..... put the flywheel on and nipped it tight..............still no spark Shocked

next i looked at the HT lead.............



not really sure how this bit is supposed to transmit a high tension current Shocked



also no sign of a condenser ...........

give up for the moment as its time to cook my tea Laughing

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Re: new toy .......Villiers Mk15

Post by Foden on Sat Jun 09 2012, 17:29

The condensor is behind the points Neville, how fast are you spinning the flywheel as they need a really good pull with a rope to generate a decent spark? Could be that the coil is dead though.

Pete.

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Re: new toy .......Villiers Mk15

Post by hob on Sat Jun 09 2012, 17:42

spinning by hand with the head and sump off...........will put the mag back together tomorrow and spin it with my drill..........see what happens. Very Happy

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Re: new toy .......Villiers Mk15

Post by hob on Sun Jun 10 2012, 13:07

hob wrote:will put the mag back together tomorrow and spin it with my drill..........see what happens. Very Happy

still nothing, i will have to see which bits are available on my scrap engine next time i'm at the workshop.

meanwhile with a lot of bashing and swearing i got the big end apart and the piston out,





some of the rings were stuck in the grooves but came loose with a wash in white spirit



only the top ring is warn smooth and apart from being glazed a bit the bore looks good too, big end shells and crank show little wear too



its almost as if the engine developed a problem with the electrics early in its life and was never used again.

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Re: new toy .......Villiers Mk15

Post by stationary stu on Mon Jun 11 2012, 09:45

It all looks fine Neville, I think your right a lot of these small engines were stored in damp places or left in the rain and they became damp and lost there spark so they were stuck in the corner and forgotten about for years. The main problem is getting the spark back and that's the costly part so a lot ended up in the skip or were sold to good people like ourselves that have no sense but enjoy a challenge. Hope you can get it sorted without to much of a problem. (has your other engine got a spark to it) You can sometimes pick up the complete backplate etc of ebay for these but it's a gamble as to it being any good or not.

Stu.

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Re: new toy .......Villiers Mk15

Post by hob on Tue Jul 03 2012, 18:24

still playing as and when time permits...................still no spark but the painting goes on



scrap engine in the background .................unlikely to be anything of use on it .................. Rolling Eyes


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Re: new toy .......Villiers Mk15

Post by kevjhnsn on Tue Jul 03 2012, 19:57

cactus hob
sorry sounds like your a mate of sponge bob lol lol :offtopic[1]:

HOB
do you have a ohms meter ????
if so set it to 2000 ohms area the test ht lead at bolth ends as the little brass screw up in the backalit screw in part my be corroded
if not try connecting the meter to the contact in centre of the coil and the other to the mounting shaft there should be arround the 700-1200 ohms for the h/t side of the coil and then try the side wire and the mounting shaft of the coil ,this is the l/t side and sould be giving around 200-600 ohms
if you get 0 on either side lt/ht coil is broken down and knackered
if this is all good then try in the points part buy part with the meter grounded to back alloy plate and find the fult this way
but to me it is sounding like the coil is dead on h/t side and this is the weak point on the villiers mag system
anything else pm me as ive messed with about 30 villiers over the last year from scrap to runners again
and may have parts you need in my stash of none repairables
kev
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Re: new toy .......Villiers Mk15

Post by kevjhnsn on Tue Jul 03 2012, 20:07

hob wrote:spent the afternoon looking for the missing spark.................took the flywheel off .........that looks ok after i wiped the oil off the inside, no rust on the magnets



cleaned the oil out of the points and cleaned up the points faces



set the points and plug gap..... put the flywheel on and nipped it tight..............still no spark Shocked

next i looked at the HT lead.............



not really sure how this bit is supposed to transmit a high tension current Shocked



also no sign of a condenser ...........

give up for the moment as its time to cook my tea Laughing

HOB
JUST NOTICED THE COIL looks to of been heated with a blow lamp for soldering the contacts on
coil will be dead as a door nail as they a very fine wires internally and excessive heat melts them and fast
p.s please read my above message also
kev

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Re: new toy .......Villiers Mk15

Post by hob on Tue Jul 03 2012, 20:25

kevjhnsn wrote:cactus hob
sorry sounds like your a mate of sponge bob lol lol :offtopic[1]:

HOB
do you have a ohms meter ????
if so set it to 2000 ohms area the test ht lead at bolth ends as the little brass screw up in the backalit screw in part my be corroded
if not try connecting the meter to the contact in centre of the coil and the other to the mounting shaft there should be arround the 700-1200 ohms for the h/t side of the coil and then try the side wire and the mounting shaft of the coil ,this is the l/t side and sould be giving around 200-600 ohms
if you get 0 on either side lt/ht coil is broken down and knackered

kev

not good at electrics but bought a test meter and tried that the other day got 15 on the ht lead nothing on the coil Shocked

I will look at the coil on the scrap engine tomorrow if i can get the flywheel off......................someone cut the ht lead off level with the casing before i got it Rolling Eyes

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Re: new toy .......Villiers Mk15

Post by kevjhnsn on Tue Jul 03 2012, 21:09

hob
set your meter at around the 2000 ohms setting on the dial and will get better detailed reading back out from meter
kev

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Re: new toy .......Villiers Mk15

Post by pauldg on Wed Jul 04 2012, 15:59

Hi,

If you put the sump off your 'scrap' engine on it'll solve your mounting issues... And, those kickstarts look way cooler than a rope Cool

Of course, if you're sure there's nothing on that other one you can use then feel free to drop it round to me - I'll find something to do with it Laughing

I really hope the rest of this post doesn't come across as 'teaching to suck eggs' etc... But I'm new so you'll have to forgive me.

It looks as though you were measuring the timing on the flywheel when you said it looked about 3/8" BTDC? If that is the case then it's pretty seriously retarded...

The timing figure given (3/16" BTDC) is measured on the linear travel of the piston, not on the rotational travel of the flywheel. Because there is also an angular measurement given in the manual you have a few options for setting the timing.

Method 1

The accurate way is to find a handy stick that fits through the plughole (if the head is attached)... put the stick in the hole and find TDC, then mark the stick level with the top of the hole (or any other handy reference point that doesn't move).

Next mark the stick 3/16" above this first mark and put the stick back in the hole. Turn the engine backwards until the second mark is level with your chosen reference point.

This is the correct place for your points to be starting to open. Turn the flywheel without moving the crank until this happens and tighten the flywheel bolt.

Timing done!

Method 2

This is a very rough way of doing it but it'll get close - if you are running it lightly loaded and not at full speed it'll be close enough.

Check where the keyway is on the drive end of the crank (opposite the flywheel) when the piston is at TDC (should be at the top but doesn't matter as long as you know where it is). Turn the crank backwards 27 degrees and hold the crank then turn the flywheel until the points start to open. Tighten flywheel.

Timing done!

Method 3

Find TDC and position the flywheel so the points are starting to open at this point. Then mark the flywheel in line with the arrow on the crankcase.

Convert 27 degrees into the rotational measurement required for your flywheel. (Diameter of flywheel x pi / 360 x 27) It looks worse than it is!

Assuming a 7" flywheel (at a guess) -- 7*pi = 22 (circumference close enough) -- 22 / 360 = 0.06 (inches per degree of rotation) -- 0.06*27 = 1.65 (inches for 27 degrees of rotation - 42mm might be easier to use!)

Turn the engine backwards this amount (42mm) measured on the edge of the flywheel. Then hold the crank and turn the flywheel back so the lines you made line up again. Tighten flywheel.

Timing done!

All 3 methods seem to make most people affraid but that's part of the fun! Obviously you'd know to set the points gap before doing any of these...

You also need a coil that works - that'll help quite a lot. Twisted Evil

Oh, and that springy connection from the HT lead to the coil is actually pretty reliable, just so long as it's clean. The HT spark is all voltage and nearly no current.

Hope that helps - or at the very least doesn't offend...
Paul

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Re: new toy .......Villiers Mk15

Post by Biggsy on Wed Jul 04 2012, 22:35

can you measure the coil resistance?

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Re: new toy .......Villiers Mk15

Post by DanBoy on Thu Jul 05 2012, 08:23

I would just replace the coil. I think that everyone agrees that yours is probably kna*kered lol! lol!

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Re: new toy .......Villiers Mk15

Post by hob on Thu Jul 05 2012, 09:03

pauldg wrote:Hi,

If you put the sump off your 'scrap' engine on it'll solve your mounting issues... And, those kickstarts look way cooler than a rope Cool

It looks as though you were measuring the timing on the flywheel when you said it looked about 3/8" BTDC? If that is the case then it's pretty seriously retarded...

The timing figure given (3/16" BTDC) is measured on the linear travel of the piston, not on the rotational travel of the flywheel. Because there is also an angular measurement given in the manual you have a few options for setting the timing.

Paul

Thanks, and yes i was thinking of the measurement on the flywheel not on the piston height Embarassed now the brain is engaged i can see that error.

the engine is from a Monro Tiller (rotivator) where the engine bolted onto the gearbox with 4 bolts round the drive shaft, and lugs on the sump would have been in the way. I am hoping to keep it as original as i can hence the strange colour. I will probably end up making some straps to go over where the sump bolts to the rest of the engine.

Neville

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Re: new toy .......Villiers Mk15

Post by hob on Thu Jul 05 2012, 09:29

kevjhnsn wrote:

HOB
do you have a ohms meter ????
if so set it to 2000 ohms area the test ht lead at both ends as the little brass screw up in the Bakelite screw in part my be corroded
1 probe up the plug cap and one on the brass spring gives a reading of 15

kevjhnsn wrote:
if not try connecting the meter to the contact in center of the coil and the other to the mounting shaft there should be around the 700-1200 ohms for the h/t side of the coil and then try the side wire and the mounting shaft of the coil ,this is the l/t side and should be giving around 200-600 ohms
if you get 0 on either side lt/ht coil is broken down and knackered

kev

got the flywheel off the scrap engine now



just to clarify, i should be testing these points one at a time to earth? I.E. the drive shaft or back plate



also my knowledge of test meters runs to testing batteries, anything else i don't have a clue Embarassed

is this on the right setting?



if so all the readings apart from 15 on the HT lead were zero.

Neville

thanks for all the help guys, i will probably get there in the end Rolling Eyes

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Re: new toy .......Villiers Mk15

Post by stationary stu on Thu Jul 05 2012, 10:25

Can I thank everyone that's replyed to help Neville as it's also teaching me some stuff that I didn't know and I'm the same I only ever use a multimeter for checking batteries and alternator outputs so it's all very useful stuff to know.
Neville sounds as if the coils dead to me also have you check the electrics on the old engine yet to see if it's useable.

Stu

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Re: new toy .......Villiers Mk15

Post by pauldg on Thu Jul 05 2012, 11:14

hob wrote:

just to clarify, i should be testing these points one at a time to earth? I.E. the drive shaft or back plate




Yes, that's right - back plate or the mounts for the coil.

hob wrote:

also my knowledge of test meters runs to testing batteries, anything else i don't have a clue Embarassed

is this on the right setting?



if so all the readings apart from 15 on the HT lead were zero.


I'd move that dial 3 clicks clockwise - on 2000 rather than 2000k. But if you're getting nothing at all it's probably pretty dead...

Give it a shot on 2000 and see what it says though, never know Smile Just don't hold out too much hope.

Paul

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Re: new toy .......Villiers Mk15

Post by hob on Thu Jul 05 2012, 11:36

stationary stu wrote:Can I thank everyone that's replyed to help Neville as it's also teaching me some stuff that I didn't know and I'm the same I only ever use a multimeter for checking batteries and alternator outputs so it's all very useful stuff to know.
Neville sounds as if the coils dead to me also have you check the electrics on the old engine yet to see if it's useable.

Stu

yes zero on both coils....................there is a wire from the side joint to the back plate so that must be open circuit anyway??

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Re: new toy .......Villiers Mk15

Post by hob on Thu Jul 05 2012, 11:37

pauldg wrote:

I'd move that dial 3 clicks clockwise - on 2000 rather than 2000k. But if you're getting nothing at all it's probably pretty dead...

Give it a shot on 2000 and see what it says though, never know Smile Just don't hold out too much hope.

Paul

still zero both coils

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