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new toy .......Villiers Mk15

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Re: new toy .......Villiers Mk15

Post by pauldg on Thu Jul 05 2012, 12:18

hob wrote:
still zero both coils

When you say 'zero' do you mean the same as when you put the leads together or the same as when they are held apart?

If it's as in the picture of the meter (with a '1' on the left) it's open circuit but if the display changes to '0' it's a different story...

Paul

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Re: new toy .......Villiers Mk15

Post by hob on Thu Jul 05 2012, 12:26

pauldg wrote:
hob wrote:
still zero both coils

When you say 'zero' do you mean the same as when you put the leads together or the same as when they are held apart?

If it's as in the picture of the meter (with a '1' on the left) it's open circuit but if the display changes to '0' it's a different story...

Paul

I assumed the "1" was because the meter was not zeroed correctly at the factory

on both engines the center point on both coils stays at one with no changes

the end bit on both coils moves the numbers around and settles on 002

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Re: new toy .......Villiers Mk15

Post by pauldg on Thu Jul 05 2012, 12:47

The '1' is because the reading is out of range and is correct behaviour - it should only say '0' on a short circuit (like when you touch the leads together).

When you say 'the end bit' I assume you mean the mounting clamps? If so, they should be 0 or close (002 is fine on that bit). If you are getting no change (1 on the left, not something like 001 on the right of the screen) then it's pretty safe to assume they are ckufed.

Depending on what the engine is going to be used for there are different degrees of dead... I have 3 villiers coils that test as dead but still produce a spark - they won't be doing it for much longer though. Maybe they'll last another 3 minutes, maybe another 3 years, no way to know.

For the time involved, it might be worth sticking on the backplate or coil off the spare engine to see if it'll spark - if it does you can test the rest of the engine is good and source another coil at your leisure (they're always available cheaply when you don't really 'need' one). You don't need to do any timing to do this, just stick the flywheel on and give it a spin - the relationship between the magnets and the points will be correct if the points are close (I use a fingernail to gap points - one of my nails is 16thou Laughing ) it'll just be wrong for firing the engine.

Paul

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Re: new toy .......Villiers Mk15

Post by hob on Thu Jul 05 2012, 12:54

When you say 'the end bit' I assume you mean the mounting clamps? If so, they should be 0 or close (002 is fine on that bit). If you are getting no change (1 on the left, not something like 001 on the right of the screen) then it's pretty safe to assume they are ckufed.

this is the reading between the end solder joint on the coil and the steel end or back plate

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Re: new toy .......Villiers Mk15

Post by pauldg on Thu Jul 05 2012, 21:24

The wire that goes from the 'end' joint to the backplate - I can only assume that's a kill wire. It should be insulated from ground (fibre washers or similar) so you can connect a kill switch to the other side of the backplate.

Disconnect that wire and test again maybe? The reading seems a little on the low side, although not the end of the world... If that's shorted then that'll depress the spark. It's like keeping the points closed. To be on the safe side, I'd disconnect all the wires from the coil (points, backplate, HT lead etc.).

It's worth checking the condensor(s) too. Access these by removing the points housing (two nuts on reverse of backplate) and the condensor is a square can with a wire mounted in the back of the housing. Remove the condensor wire from the points and set the meter to the lowest ohms setting (yours has a speaker symbol too) then connect the black lead of the meter to the can/ground and the red to the wire. The reading should slowly change as the condensor charges. When you have a steady reading, change the meter to 20V and the reading should slowly count down to zero. (If you get no reading on 20V, or it starts at 1 and then goes to zero, start again but this time set the meter to 2000m for the voltage (2nd) part).

If the condensor doesn't do this, it's faulty. It's not a definitive test and won't show if it is breaking down or whether it'll fail when it gets warm though.

If that test is as clear as mud, let me know and I'll sort out some photos.

If you still get no spark from either coil after all that then it's shopping time. Or strip the coil and rewind it with new wire - there's a job and a half.

Paul

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Re: new toy .......Villiers Mk15

Post by hob on Thu Jul 05 2012, 21:58

pauldg wrote:The wire that goes from the 'end' joint to the backplate - I can only assume that's a kill wire. It should be insulated from ground (fibre washers or similar) so you can connect a kill switch to the other side of the backplate.

Disconnect that wire and test again maybe? The reading seems a little on the low side, although not the end of the world... If that's shorted then that'll depress the spark. It's like keeping the points closed. To be on the safe side, I'd disconnect all the wires from the coil (points, backplate, HT lead etc.).



Paul

yes its a kill switch, i will have another look tomorrow Smile

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National F type 1935.............wood planer
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Re: new toy .......Villiers Mk15

Post by stationary stu on Fri Jul 06 2012, 13:15

Very interesting thread, you know your stuff Paul. Very Happy Think I'll need to save this thread for future reference.

Stu..

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Re: new toy .......Villiers Mk15

Post by pauldg on Fri Jul 06 2012, 20:01

stationary stu wrote:Very interesting thread, you know your stuff Paul. Very Happy Think I'll need to save this thread for future reference.

Stu..

Thanks Smile I'd be happy to do any write-ups if anyone has any suggestions? PM me if so...

Paul

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Re: new toy .......Villiers Mk15

Post by stationary stu on Sat Jul 07 2012, 11:08

Thanks Paul I may well take up your kind offer.

Stu.

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Re: new toy .......Villiers Mk15

Post by hob on Wed Jul 11 2012, 21:25

pauldg wrote:

If you still get no spark from either coil after all that then it's shopping time. Or strip the coil and rewind it with new wire - there's a job and a half.

Paul

this project is looking more and more like scrap bin material, it has served its purpose of keeping me amused for a while.............................and i'm not inclined to spend this kind of money

http://www.villiersparts.co.uk/ignition.html

on a 22 quid engine which i have had 22 quids worth of value playing with it................ i now know of 3 villiers mk 15 engines none of which can raise a spark which suggests buying 2nd hand ignition parts would be a waste of money.......................i might sell them for parts or just quietly slide them in the scrap bin and move on to something that will be a viable project Shocked

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Re: new toy .......Villiers Mk15

Post by pauldg on Wed Jul 11 2012, 21:37

Don't scrap them!!! Well, obviously that's up to you what with them being your engines and all, but I'll give you scrap value for them if nothing else...

I've just 'revived' 2 of my villiers coils as an experiment - I removed the outer covering and one layer of windings, re-soldered the nipple that the HT lead sits in and got acceptable readings off them.

New parts are silly money and used parts are a failure waiting to happen though.

Paul

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Re: new toy .......Villiers Mk15

Post by hob on Wed Jul 11 2012, 21:46

i must admit my only saving thought was to strip and see what i could do with the coils............so maybe i'll try that. transferring them to wiltshire is probably not financially viable either from Suffolk Neutral

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National F type 1935.............wood planer
argosy pump
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Re: new toy .......Villiers Mk15

Post by pauldg on Wed Jul 11 2012, 21:57

It might be worth a shot with the coils, the primaries are fine and chances are the breaks in the secondaries are at or very near the surface. Remove a layer at a time and then test with a meter again - you have to scrape the wire clean as it's enamelled for insulation. Just so long as you find continuity before you remove 3 or 4 layers it shouldn't be too bad.

The wire is thinner than hair so fun to work with and there is a layer of varnished cloth type tape between each layer of wire...

Paul

(p.s. if you get very fed up with the engines, there are a few rallies over this way Laughing )

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Re: new toy .......Villiers Mk15

Post by stationary stu on Thu Jul 12 2012, 11:47

I know where your coming from Neville, I bought a cheap BSA a few years ago that needed a carb, I thought no problem WRONG the only one I could find was £85 and no way was I going to spend that so I messed about and managed to fit a villiers carb just to get it running and see what it was like and it ran spot on. I put it to the back of the shed to see what came along, since then I've managed to get a carb for £6 and another 3 engines all the same as I was going to use them as spares but they are also runners. You could sell off the parts and make your money back easy or keep looking for a runner in bad shape and use the bits from that, it depends if you have the room to store them till you find something.
I have to say I think Villiers parts are expensive and you should be able to pick the parts up cheaper but I still think they'll be worth more then the engine is.

Stu.

PS just checked another supplier and there even dearer from them Laughing Laughing have a word with Kev, he might know of a cheaper source for parts.

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Re: new toy .......Villiers Mk15

Post by pauldg on Thu Jul 12 2012, 11:53

I've seen newly wound coils (long or short) on ebay from £15 + p+p - about 20 all-in.

Got to keep an eye out though as they're not there all the time.

Paul

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Re: new toy .......Villiers Mk15

Post by nutgone on Thu Jul 12 2012, 18:54

Damn magnetos!

When they're good they're really good, when they're bad they're just cráp!

I have to say though, that link posted earlier was some of the cheapest magneto coils I've seen so far. If my Tarpen needed a new £60 mag coil, it would get one, but that's a different engine, & a whole different scenario.

Just out of interest, I've been looking at mag parts recently (as it seems to be magneto season). I had thoughts that my Tarpen mag might be knackered (dunno why, I hadn't even tested it then). As it was a Wico mag, all my searching led me to the USA, where it seems these coils can be had a bit cheaper (especially when you figure in the exchange rate). I think if I needed a mag coil I would probably end up having one shipped over from there.
I have no idea if this is the same for Villiers stuff though, but there was so much good info about mags on this thread, I thought I would add that.

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Re: new toy .......Villiers Mk15

Post by stationary stu on Fri Jul 13 2012, 10:50

nutgone wrote:Damn magnetos!

When they're good they're really good, when they're bad they're just cráp!

I have to say though, that link posted earlier was some of the cheapest magneto coils I've seen so far. If my Tarpen needed a new £60 mag coil, it would get one, but that's a different engine, & a whole different scenario.

Just out of interest, I've been looking at mag parts recently (as it seems to be magneto season). I had thoughts that my Tarpen mag might be knackered (dunno why, I hadn't even tested it then). As it was a Wico mag, all my searching led me to the USA, where it seems these coils can be had a bit cheaper (especially when you figure in the exchange rate). I think if I needed a mag coil I would probably end up having one shipped over from there.
I have no idea if this is the same for Villiers stuff though, but there was so much good info about mags on this thread, I thought I would add that.

Don't forget you'll have import duty to pay also VAT on parts shipped from the States and it could make it expensive once you've added the additional cost to the coil.

Stu.

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Re: new toy .......Villiers Mk15

Post by nutgone on Fri Jul 13 2012, 16:26

stationary stu wrote:
nutgone wrote:Damn magnetos!

When they're good they're really good, when they're bad they're just cráp!

I have to say though, that link posted earlier was some of the cheapest magneto coils I've seen so far. If my Tarpen needed a new £60 mag coil, it would get one, but that's a different engine, & a whole different scenario.

Just out of interest, I've been looking at mag parts recently (as it seems to be magneto season). I had thoughts that my Tarpen mag might be knackered (dunno why, I hadn't even tested it then). As it was a Wico mag, all my searching led me to the USA, where it seems these coils can be had a bit cheaper (especially when you figure in the exchange rate). I think if I needed a mag coil I would probably end up having one shipped over from there.
I have no idea if this is the same for Villiers stuff though, but there was so much good info about mags on this thread, I thought I would add that.

Don't forget you'll have import duty to pay also VAT on parts shipped from the States and it could make it expensive once you've added the additional cost to the coil.

Stu.

Hmm, didn't figure all that lot. I've had loads of components shipped in from China & Hong Kong, but they're usually labelled up as "Gift" on the customs sticker. Guess I've just been lucky so far. My mum once had some perfume shipped over & got stung for the duty.

Hopefully I won't need any coils for a while.

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Re: new toy .......Villiers Mk15

Post by stationary stu on Sat Jul 14 2012, 11:06

If you want anything from the States ask Jonesey as he's the guy that ships a lot of stuff over the pond and might be able to help.

Stu.

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Re: new toy .......Villiers Mk15

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