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International M trolley building & restoration

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Re: International M trolley building & restoration

Post by mike d on Wed Aug 01 2012, 22:03

ok i guess its up to you..
make it the way you want feller,,,

mike...

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Re: International M trolley building & restoration

Post by matt86 on Wed Aug 01 2012, 22:06

Wait and see how it turns out mush .... It be all fine in the end .

the wooden frame that had off you when assembled was 1 " wider than my gate , so im having to re design but still using the oak bearers .

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Re: International M trolley building & restoration

Post by mike d on Wed Aug 01 2012, 22:07

excellent mate..what about the weigh of it though ?????

you have mail by the way....

mike.....

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Re: International M trolley building & restoration

Post by matt86 on Wed Aug 01 2012, 22:10

mike d wrote:excellent mate..what about the weigh of it though ?????

you have mail by the way....

mike.....

i know it may be a bit heavier but still young and fit enough ... at the moment ... Laughing

Its actually quite a bit lighter than the lister A so should be fine .... with the bigish wheels should roll fine too ....

you have mail back

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Re: International M trolley building & restoration

Post by mike d on Wed Aug 01 2012, 22:13

[quote="matt86"]
mike d wrote:excellent mate..what about the weigh of it though ?????

you have mail by the way....

mike.....

i know it may be a bit heavier but still young and fit enough ... at the moment ... Laughing

Its actually quite a bit lighter than the lister A so should be fine .... with the bigish wheels should roll fine too ....

you have mail back

matt[/quote

no nothing at all mate.....

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Re: International M trolley building & restoration

Post by stationary stu on Thu Aug 02 2012, 11:47

Looking good Matt should do the job fine and you can't always stick to original plans when you have gate ways to get through.

Stu.

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Re: International M trolley building & restoration

Post by matt86 on Thu Aug 02 2012, 15:56

Thanks stu ..... Try to make it look like a typical american trolley design but practical .

steering is fantastic .... i shall be making more like that in future ....

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Re: International M trolley building & restoration

Post by matt86 on Thu Aug 02 2012, 19:36

a few more pictures lads ...

Managed to get the metalwork primed last night , gave 2 coats of black after work . Got the bearers attached to the metalwork . All i can say is that its starting to look pukka !









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Re: International M trolley building & restoration

Post by kevjhnsn on Thu Aug 02 2012, 20:07

matt
looking great there matey
would you think of making me one for amanco
mine is flexing like its ready to snap when engine running Sad
kev

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Re: International M trolley building & restoration

Post by pauldg on Thu Aug 02 2012, 20:11

Looks good.

I would have one personal reservation though, and that is the steering pivot. Pulling that with an engine on over possibly rough ground or down a ramp off a trailer or something will put quite a bit of force into that, due to the lever action caused by having the centre of the axle so far from the pivot. If I was doing the same sort of thing, I would've attached a disc at least 6" diameter to each crossmember (where you have the washer) to spread out the load and make it more of a pulling force than a bend on the pivot bolt. Or made the axle supports triangular with a flat top (axle on the bottom point of the triangle, front and rear).

To be fair, it's unlikely to be a problem and I tend to overestimate toward the cautionary side. I'd be spitting bullets at myself though if the front axle pulled out flat when a rear wheel caught on a clump of grass or sunk in a damp patch while I was pulling it. Or if it collapsed under the trolley while it was going down a trailer ramp...

Feel free to ignore me, or tell me to shut up Laughing

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Re: International M trolley building & restoration

Post by matt86 on Thu Aug 02 2012, 20:20

Ok paul ... shut up ! Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

i can see where you coming from but how often will the engine be pulled over rough ground ???? my garden is flat grass or concrete same with the drive ... normally the rally field is not too bad ...

If you look at other american engine front axle frames are plenty like that but without the big washer welded in there just turning on the framework ..... so if that ok for many year this be well up to the job ....

If the bolt bends i will just drill hole bigger and put a bigger bolt in Laughing Laughing

Oh and Kev i would make more trolleys but its the cost .... ok if you got plenty of time on your hands as its for yourself but if making for someone else would be too expensive...

I know some point i will be making a few stock sets of the cranked axle frames . as can use them for front or back but il invest in making a jig .

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Re: International M trolley building & restoration

Post by Abes on Thu Aug 02 2012, 20:21

Looking good mate well done, did you bend or weld the metal sections in the end

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Re: International M trolley building & restoration

Post by pauldg on Thu Aug 02 2012, 20:32

matt86 wrote:Ok paul ... shut up ! Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

i can see where you coming from but how often will the engine be pulled over rough ground ???? my garden is flat grass or concrete same with the drive ... normally the rally field is not too bad ...

If you look at other american engine front axle frames are plenty like that but without the big washer welded in there just turning on the framework ..... so if that ok for many year this be well up to the job ....

If the bolt bends i will just drill hole bigger and put a bigger bolt in Laughing Laughing

I've seen a fair few like that, and I wouldn't trust any of them Laughing

Seriously though, I'm sure it'll be fine - it's just if I make something to carry 100kg, it's likely to be able to take 1500 - I seem to like webs and braces.......

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Re: International M trolley building & restoration

Post by matt86 on Thu Aug 02 2012, 20:36

Abes wrote:Looking good mate well done, did you bend or weld the metal sections in the end

looking at it what would you say i did ????

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Re: International M trolley building & restoration

Post by matt86 on Thu Aug 02 2012, 20:41

pauldg wrote:
matt86 wrote:Ok paul ... shut up ! Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

i can see where you coming from but how often will the engine be pulled over rough ground ???? my garden is flat grass or concrete same with the drive ... normally the rally field is not too bad ...

If you look at other american engine front axle frames are plenty like that but without the big washer welded in there just turning on the framework ..... so if that ok for many year this be well up to the job ....

If the bolt bends i will just drill hole bigger and put a bigger bolt in Laughing Laughing

I've seen a fair few like that, and I wouldn't trust any of them Laughing

Seriously though, I'm sure it'll be fine - it's just if I make something to carry 100kg, it's likely to be able to take 1500 - I seem to like webs and braces.......

I used to be like that but the weight it adds on is silly and gets too heavy lugging it about the engine is not as heavy as my lister A

remember your making a trolley to move the engine around short distances not like your going on a road run is it ??? Laughing Laughing

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Re: International M trolley building & restoration

Post by kevjhnsn on Thu Aug 02 2012, 22:33

matt
well i was going to say i would do the metal work for the trolleys if i had a welder of any type as i was a agricultural mechanic/ welder from age 11 i started to solder and braze with my old man for electrics and dairy repairs as i got older the allowed to move onto stick the mig and the 3 phase mig welding artic trailer and fabricating trailers for the local straw dealers and the dalgetys then j lea oaks big grain and feed companys up this way .before that i went to collage for 3 years doing agri engineering and all the gas tig mig and stick welding i pasted with "a+ distinction"
but no welders available to me now ,but 3hrs ago a neighbour has just poped around to me with a small mig so will test electrics tomorrow then pug it in and see whats what as a welder will be a great help in the hobby
i have the cast wheels and just need to make some better axles and a steerable axle will be a help on the trolley
kev

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Re: International M trolley building & restoration

Post by stationary stu on Fri Aug 03 2012, 11:48

Looks spot on with the wood sitting nice on top of the metal, people won't be able to tell if they didn't know it was there.

Paul most of us tend to over engineer trolleys and the like, don't ask my the reason why but we all tend to do it and at the end of the day all we're doing is adding weight.

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Re: International M trolley building & restoration

Post by matt86 on Fri Aug 03 2012, 12:44

stationary stu wrote:Looks spot on with the wood sitting nice on top of the metal, people won't be able to tell if they didn't know it was there.

Paul most of us tend to over engineer trolleys and the like, don't ask my the reason why but we all tend to do it and at the end of the day all we're doing is adding weight.

Stu.

cheers Stu , looks quite smart i think .... The wheels will get blasted soon .... thats when i have time to take them down to the place .

Thinking might get the engine on it later .....

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Re: International M trolley building & restoration

Post by matt86 on Fri Aug 03 2012, 12:48

kevjhnsn wrote:matt
well i was going to say i would do the metal work for the trolleys if i had a welder of any type as i was a agricultural mechanic/ welder from age 11 i started to solder and braze with my old man for electrics and dairy repairs as i got older the allowed to move onto stick the mig and the 3 phase mig welding artic trailer and fabricating trailers for the local straw dealers and the dalgetys then j lea oaks big grain and feed companys up this way .before that i went to collage for 3 years doing agri engineering and all the gas tig mig and stick welding i pasted with "a+ distinction"
but no welders available to me now ,but 3hrs ago a neighbour has just poped around to me with a small mig so will test electrics tomorrow then pug it in and see whats what as a welder will be a great help in the hobby
i have the cast wheels and just need to make some better axles and a steerable axle will be a help on the trolley
kev

would you like some axles like mine kev ....? cranked ones ? Im sure i could make some for you at a price ....

Send me a pm with the diameter of the wheels and would you want the front axle to steer under the frame like mine ? Also what width would you want the frme to take the axle ???? i can drill the holes for the axle but you can surply the steel as when i buy steel i have to buy in long lengths .... 40 x 10 mm bar is fine as that would be something that would be used for another project .

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Re: International M trolley building & restoration

Post by matt86 on Fri Aug 03 2012, 17:40

been finishing it off today and got the engine placed on not yet bolted due to need to lift it off when get the fuel tank ...

Anyway some pictures ...





and here is the gap that i have to get it through .... and how its easy to get through with the 360 degree steering ...





also i decided to put a few braces on the back axle to the main frame ...




Was a bit of head scratching earlier thinking how am i going to lift the engine onto the trolley but i cobbled together a hoist with some timbers and some 3" box section







bodge it and scarper eat your heart out Laughing Laughing Laughing

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Re: International M trolley building & restoration

Post by pauldg on Fri Aug 03 2012, 19:36

matt86 wrote:

also i decided to put a few braces on the back axle to the main frame ...


Surely that's just adding weight? tongue

Actually, Looks really good with the engine on. (That pivot still makes me go a bit 'ooh' on that corner though Laughing )

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Re: International M trolley building & restoration

Post by matt86 on Fri Aug 03 2012, 20:20

pauldg wrote:
matt86 wrote:

also i decided to put a few braces on the back axle to the main frame ...


Surely that's just adding weight? tongue

Actually, Looks really good with the engine on. (That pivot still makes me go a bit 'ooh' on that corner though Laughing )

HAHAHA thanks paul .... just better be safe then sorry while i could just grind a bit of paint of before i had the engine on . those bits of flat bar are 10mm thick so plenty of meat to them .... I think people dont trust metal and welds as much as they should do ...

Thanks again for the compliment .... next year she will be out in the public so you can see it for yourself .

The steering pivot makes you go a bit ohh er ... but seems fine to me , time will tell .

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Re: International M trolley building & restoration

Post by stationary stu on Sat Aug 04 2012, 10:29

Good idea to brace the back axle as that may have twisted under strain but should be ok now.

Paul the front axle won't hold alot of the weight as it's more over the back axle, when building a trolley this is something you have to get right, where to place the axles in regards to the engine, not to much weight over the front axle and the engine not to far back so that it tips when going up the ramps into the van.

Stu.

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Re: International M trolley building & restoration

Post by matt86 on Sat Aug 04 2012, 12:59

stationary stu wrote:Good idea to brace the back axle as that may have twisted under strain but should be ok now.

Paul the front axle won't hold alot of the weight as it's more over the back axle, when building a trolley this is something you have to get right, where to place the axles in regards to the engine, not to much weight over the front axle and the engine not to far back so that it tips when going up the ramps into the van.

Stu.

exactly right stu .... I have found the weight for the engine is 202kg so still a heavyish lump but not over heavy .... not sure if i should move the engine forward on the trolley 2 inches lets say .... I know the trolley has some holes in where i assembled it to the original design but then found out i had to change it .... I drilled a few holes in the oak off cuts to get some sawdust il do a glue and sawdust mix to make some filler one im happy with the position of the engine ....

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Re: International M trolley building & restoration

Post by pauldg on Sat Aug 04 2012, 22:35

stationary stu wrote:Good idea to brace the back axle as that may have twisted under strain but should be ok now.

Paul the front axle won't hold alot of the weight as it's more over the back axle, when building a trolley this is something you have to get right, where to place the axles in regards to the engine, not to much weight over the front axle and the engine not to far back so that it tips when going up the ramps into the van.

Stu.

One hates to seem pompous but.... Laughing

Like you say, the placement is obviously important - you want the centre of gravity to remain between the axles at the greatest deviation from level it's likely to be exposed to otherwise it'll tip.

It's not the static weight that's an issue, I have no doubt at all that it'll sit happily for decades without even flexing. You could even stick the engine directly above the front axle and it probably wouldn't move given the size of the metal and the fact it's a rough triangle. It's the dynamic loading on the pivot that I was referring to. That said, once it's moving the placement of the engine has less relevance re: axle loadings, especially with such a short wheelbase.

Now, with the ramp example. I'm assuming you are pulling the trolley using the handle attached to the front axle. I'm making a few assumptions here and some of these are adjusted to keep the figures easy. Say the trolley weighs 40kg, the engine 210kg (another assumption - 202kg dry weight + fuel + water etc.) so you've got a total of 250kg. Pull that up a 45 degree ramp (very steep I admit) and you're pulling 125kg at about 6 inches away from the pivot. That's, give or take, 140lb/ft of torque trying to bend that washer - add in a bit of friction from the wheel/axle interface, a bit of a bump mounting the ramp and an imperfect surface and that figure goes up.

Also, think of how much resistance long grass gives - you could easily apply double that torque figure just to get the thing moving - then there's the momentum once it's moving and it hits a soft patch or a tuft of strong grass.......

I'm not saying it's going to fail, in fact it more than likely won't - all I'm really doing is justifying my 'ooh' statement Laughing and showing I may just have an inkling about the physical implications.

Also, it's not that I don't trust metal or welding - if I didn't trust it I'd never ride a bike.

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Re: International M trolley building & restoration

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