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International M trolley building & restoration

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Re: International M trolley building & restoration

Post by matt86 on Sat Aug 04 2012, 23:11

I know where you coming from and during the course of the day i have decided to brace the front axle .... that is my job tomorrow .... just hope i have enough metal left Rolling Eyes

will have a brace which will be bolted between the timber bearers and there will be 2 strips ruining down from that in a sort of diagonal way to the top of the axle steering plate ... hence that will stop the twisting moment ... that's if there is any at all Shocked

Paul the ramps i have are 2 meters long and will be winching it backwards 1st so im steering it from outside the van when loading ... oh and the van is a swb mk5 transit ... so not a steep incline really .

So all has been taken on board .... i know you see other american trolleys with no bracing on the smaller engines but you think how heavy a small John Deere E is for example ... not much really compared to this one ...

Pictures to follow tomorrow

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Re: International M trolley building & restoration

Post by pauldg on Sat Aug 04 2012, 23:26

I didn't think you'd be running it up a ramp as steep as I said, it just kept the figures easier to demonstrate what I was saying.

I think I get what you mean about the new braces and where you are putting them, that should certainly help and for the extra few ounces I reckon it'll be worth it.

When I said I tend to over-engineer, I didn't mean I just keep on throwing metal at it! After all, one little brace made of thinwall tube can make a huge difference if you put it in the right place. I hope it's a bit clearer now that I do think about it...

I still say it looks good and sits well with the engine - I just wish I had something more interesting to put on my iron wheels Rolling Eyes

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Re: International M trolley building & restoration

Post by matt86 on Sat Aug 04 2012, 23:39

Thanks paul i do think it sits well on the trolley ... and the brace will not take that long to make .... You are right bracing is about appling strength in the right places , not just throwing metal at is as you said can be just a waste of time and money ....

You will get there one day Paul .... that engine did not coat me as much as you may think .... but i have to spend alot on it , o get it up and running .

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Re: International M trolley building & restoration

Post by pauldg on Sun Aug 05 2012, 01:19

Just a note - when I said 'more interesting' I didn't mean I wasn't happy with what I have so far, I'd just like a bit more variety and my little engines would look a bit silly sat on a set of 12" cast iron wheels... I'm sure I'll find some bigger stuff one day, it's just a matter of building up the contacts and seeing where they can lead.

I'll be interested in seeing what else you do to the trolley - those braces you've already added to the rear will be adding quite a lot of strength and rigidity and they don't detract from the look of it. I take it it'll be declared 'finished' from a constructional point of view after that?

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Re: International M trolley building & restoration

Post by matt86 on Sun Aug 05 2012, 10:44

Paul you find engines in all sorts of places ... ebay can be a place to get them if the bidding doesnt go silly , place a wanted add on here and im sure some off us may be able to help .... or even get the stationary engine magazine and the for sale section at the back .

there is also a good sale i go to called enstone it is on twice a year and is near me in oxfordshire . It has got to be one of the best sales now for stationary engines and equipment tools brick a brack etc .... Its run by the Cotswold oil engine preservation society .

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Re: International M trolley building & restoration

Post by pauldg on Sun Aug 05 2012, 11:16

The problem is that 'cheap' or even 'reasonable' prices are relative - if something on ebay starts at 99p, I can afford it if I'm the only bidder Laughing Laughing

From the ones I've been to it's the same with equipment sales or auctions - sometime I've been lucky (like when I got 2 suffolks for a total of £2.35 inc.vat or my backpack strimmer for £1.50) but usually it's well out of my range.

So I have to rely on people who either just want shot of something rusty taking up space or they want a good home for it... Not that I'm hinting or anything of course Wink

Anyway, I think I've taken this thread plenty :offtopic[1]: so I'll be outside if anyone wants me.

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Re: International M trolley building & restoration

Post by stationary stu on Sun Aug 05 2012, 11:17

Can I just say that when I mount an engine on to a trolley I never put it in the exact middle I put it nearer to the rear to take some of the weight away from the steering axle to make it easier to manoeuvre but not far enough back so as it will tip when loading, I never thought about doing it backwards like Matt does so I think I'll try it that way and see how it goes.
Paul another arument when building trolleys is the use of hollow steel tube for axles, I've had one snap so now I won't ever use it yet some have used it for years and never had a problem.
I've built a few trolleys yet you still need to think it out regards weight, length and width there never the same as different engines need different trolleys built. I think I might just start building non-steerable trolleys there a lot easier LOL.
Looking forward to seeing your added supports Matt it sounds as if it should work out better.

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Re: International M trolley building & restoration

Post by stationary stu on Sun Aug 05 2012, 11:23

pauldg wrote:The problem is that 'cheap' or even 'reasonable' prices are relative - if something on ebay starts at 99p, I can afford it if I'm the only bidder Laughing Laughing

From the ones I've been to it's the same with equipment sales or auctions - sometime I've been lucky (like when I got 2 suffolks for a total of £2.35 inc.vat or my backpack strimmer for £1.50) but usually it's well out of my range.

So I have to rely on people who either just want shot of something rusty taking up space or they want a good home for it... Not that I'm hinting or anything of course Wink

Anyway, I think I've taken this thread plenty :offtopic[1]: so I'll be outside if anyone wants me.

Paul there is some cheap engines turn up on ebay but the problem is there location, if you can get them collected by a friend that travels near to it does help. The problem with cheap engines are the parts that's normally missing so that's all added cost so are they really worth it? The place that Matt's on about (Enstone) is just like a car boot sale where people take stuff to sell so if your good at bartering you can get bargins.

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Re: International M trolley building & restoration

Post by pauldg on Sun Aug 05 2012, 11:31

With regard to solid bar v. hollow tube for an axle.

If the material is the same and the weight is the same, the tube will be stronger but obviously it'll be bigger. If, on the other hand, the diameters are the same, then the solid bar will be stronger. If you are constrained by the holes in your wheels, then the bar that fits will have more strength but it's back to the weight/strength issue again. (I'm only talking bending loads here, like with an axle - torsional, compressive or tensional loads have different considerations.)

I'd usually go for a tube, unless the load and mounts dictate otherwise.

If you do something like drill a hole through it then all bets are off...

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Re: International M trolley building & restoration

Post by matt86 on Sun Aug 05 2012, 13:40

Ive lost count the amount of times tube has come up in conversation .... Laughing

If you have wheels that are able to drill out of take 1 1/2" tube that should be ok due to you can use water pipe .... but like my situation where you have a hole thats 7/8 and not much more meat to drill out without the wall becoming too thin sold axle would be the way ....

certainly drilling holes in tubing is a no no Twisted Evil

but also depends on the size of the engine you are putting on there ... say something like a petter a , lister d , wd or something similar size 1 1/2 hp area should be ok on tubes ... but then id you go Lister A and up size you either have to go for big diameter tube or solid bar ...

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Re: International M trolley building & restoration

Post by matt86 on Sun Aug 05 2012, 17:18

Right lads the final "adaptions" have now been done to the trolley now , just need to make the handle when i get time to go get the steel and wheels shot blasted but not necessary at the moment on the to do list ....







a bit similar to this typical design with the bracing



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Re: International M trolley building & restoration

Post by pauldg on Mon Aug 06 2012, 01:39

Ok, my last little bit on this... Ignore it, delete it, react to it however you like. Just be aware it's meant in an informative way. It's just what I've observed and what action I would personally take.

The bit you've now braced was causing me no concern at all.

As a comparison between your design and the 'typical' example you have shown. Here's a (very) rough sectional sketch.



Yours is on the right and the 'typical' on the left.

The 'reaction length' I've illustrated is the effective length over which the bending moment on the pivot bolt is applied. As an example, put a bolt in a vice and try to bend it using just your fingers - that is the effect the 'typical' design has on that pivot. Now slip an 8 inch bar over the bolt, hold the end and try to bend it - that is the effect your design has on it.

The typical design also appears to have a dished pivot washer to allow some movement, like a rudimentary suspension system. Sometimes, a little flex can make the difference between a bit of a wobble and a bit of a failure.

If I was to obtain a trolley of your design I would make one (and only one) modification and that is to add a single brace as in this other (very) rough sectional view:



The points 'a' and 'b' would be either bolts or pins welded to the axle and the frame. Point 'b' is in the middle of the axle. They would not be tight on the brace so as to allow some movement side to side to allow all four wheels to remain in contact with the ground if it was slightly rough (or it had to negotiate something like a cable ramp at an angle). Springs could be added over the pins between the brace and the axle/frame to stop rattles. This brace could be made of something like 1/2" tube so it wouldn't add much weight or stand out. If it's kept central it won't affect the steering much either - how often are you going to want to turn the axle through 360 degrees? You'd still have almost 180 to play with.

Like I've said before, I'm not intending to pick faults to try and start any sort of argument, I'd just hate to see anything happen if I could've said something to try to prevent it.

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Re: International M trolley building & restoration

Post by stationary stu on Mon Aug 06 2012, 11:37

Paul your probably correct in what your saying but in my mind that's over engineering something that's just used to move an engine about. When you move an engine on a field you've more then likely got someone to help by pushing and it's not moved fast or pulled with a lot of force. A lot of trolleys normally just have a few large coach washers used on the steering pin and work no problem. When these trolleys were first made they only used hard wood so the addition of steel will help tremendously.
Just to add to the use of tube on axles, when mine failed it was drilled at the end but the main issue was the weight, it had a Lister G on the trolley which is probably heavier the a Lister A.

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Re: International M trolley building & restoration

Post by pauldg on Mon Aug 06 2012, 13:11

stationary stu wrote:Paul your probably correct in what your saying but in my mind that's over engineering something that's just used to move an engine about. When you move an engine on a field you've more then likely got someone to help by pushing and it's not moved fast or pulled with a lot of force. A lot of trolleys normally just have a few large coach washers used on the steering pin and work no problem. When these trolleys were first made they only used hard wood so the addition of steel will help tremendously.
Just to add to the use of tube on axles, when mine failed it was drilled at the end but the main issue was the weight, it had a Lister G on the trolley which is probably heavier the a Lister A.

Stu.

I did type more here, but it started to sound condescending so I changed my mind.

Anyway, I'm out of this one - I've made my recommendation and while I stick by it I'm not going to labour it any more...

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Re: International M trolley building & restoration

Post by matt86 on Mon Aug 06 2012, 17:43

Paul thanks for your input , i have taken it on board but how the trolley stands at the moment is how it is staying ... there is enough metal to sink a battleship ... Laughing but is built well considering the originals we still find use wood for the axle supports and i would say they have more chance ripping out coach screws etc .

Where the trolley would be moved about i dont think i will have a problem ... when comes out of van on a rally it only gets moved about 10 feet at max to the position and staying there and concerning tight corners i dont think will even be turning 180 degrees probably 90 at the most .

regards , matt
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Re: International M trolley building & restoration

Post by hob on Mon Aug 06 2012, 18:01

Matt it looks strong enough to me................ the problem i had before i fitted bigger wheels was it tended to tip sideways at 90 degrees.............the bigger wheels on mine will not let it turn that far now. Very Happy

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Re: International M trolley building & restoration

Post by matt86 on Mon Aug 06 2012, 18:33

Thanks Hob .... its solid as a rock and verry stable .... ive tried tipping it over on a incline and its verry hard to get it to even lift a wheel up .

Next job is to sort the carb out .... wel thats when it gets here in customs at the moment

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Re: International M trolley building & restoration

Post by matt86 on Mon Aug 13 2012, 12:28

A little update ... had a parcel arrive from the states with some gaskets literature and a few fittings with no vat or tax added Very Happy Also a slip from parcelforce on the carb i got also from the states which was £102 including shipping was a charge of £8.00 handling fee and £6 something for vat . That may help some of you who is thinking ordering from the states on costs ...


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Re: International M trolley building & restoration

Post by kevjhnsn on Mon Aug 13 2012, 22:43

matt
its all coming together for you now mate
and wait for the enjoyment when its all finished and chugging away, :Dfrom ear tho ear Very Happy
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Re: International M trolley building & restoration

Post by matt86 on Tue Aug 14 2012, 17:37

the parts are slowly appearing now ...

this is what arrived in the post today .... alot better condition than my old one full of rust and seats that was rusting away ..







and this is the current state of the engine ....


goin to order some gasket material for the head gasket ... or wait and see what i can find at dorset as that is creeping up on us , not like il have the time to do it anyway .... a busy 2 weeks im thinking ... got to go and pick up a bus for bro this weekend from Manchester thats limited to 55 Shocked

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Re: International M trolley building & restoration

Post by kevjhnsn on Wed Aug 15 2012, 15:50

matt youll be going past my juctions on the way to mancester only 8 mins of the motorway but a 55 maybe 12 mins
thats a good day out for you then maybe a sleep inbetween the driving too must be 500mile round trip for you matt
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Re: International M trolley building & restoration

Post by matt86 on Wed Aug 15 2012, 18:39

kevjhnsn wrote:matt youll be going past my juctions on the way to mancester only 8 mins of the motorway but a 55 maybe 12 mins
thats a good day out for you then maybe a sleep inbetween the driving too must be 500mile round trip for you matt
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im only driving down from there .... chris is driving both ways
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Re: International M trolley building & restoration

Post by matt86 on Fri Sep 07 2012, 21:37

Right some progress lads since my trip to GDSF

made a head gasket and placed it all back together and adjusted the guvnor , may need to slow it down a tad more but these engines from what i see are fast runners .

A couple of videos ... 1st one not too smoother but by the 2nd video i have got it set up around right ...

I do not recommend anyone running a engine like i have with no fuel tank so the fuel overflow just drains onto the floor could be a bit of a fire hazard Embarassed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnmITYxycjU&list=UUPcxN_LDMmLCQJddw8KrrKQ&index=2&feature=plcp

and a smoother run

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5K0pxDDJ48&list=UUPcxN_LDMmLCQJddw8KrrKQ&index=1&feature=plcp

All i got to do now is get a fuel tank , a fuel pump and sort all the pipework and fittings out .

enjoy .

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Re: International M trolley building & restoration

Post by stationary stu on Sat Sep 08 2012, 09:51

You've done a good job there Matt shes running very well maybe a tad fast but I'm sure you can slow it down a bit. Have you anything sorted with a fuel tank or do you need one made?

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Re: International M trolley building & restoration

Post by matt86 on Sat Sep 08 2012, 09:59

stationary stu wrote:You've done a good job there Matt shes running very well maybe a tad fast but I'm sure you can slow it down a bit. Have you anything sorted with a fuel tank or do you need one made?

Stu.

stu i have looked into it and the M's are quite fast running engines anyway . I need still quite a few bits anyway fuel tank pipes pump etc i will make a order with hit and miss but i am holding out for enstone to see if can find any parts there .
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