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JAP - 4/b? 4/f? something else?

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JAP - 4/b? 4/f? something else?

Post by pauldg on Mon Jul 02 2012, 00:50

Hi,

I got this little (and very incomplete) JAP engine a while ago and can't pin down the model...

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I've been told it may be a 4/b (industrial) but I'm not 100% on that as it doesn't quite match the illustrations in the A-Z or a picture from a service manual for the 4/b I've seen. The image (that should be) below shows where the base of the crankcase is different, for those who have a copy of the A-Z handy. The 4/f is sparsely detailed in there as a lightweight 4/b and the similarities do outweigh the differences.

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So, can anyone shed a bit of light on it?

Cheers, Paul


Last edited by pauldg on Thu Jul 12 2012, 21:58; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : photos moved...)

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Re: JAP - 4/b? 4/f? something else?

Post by Foden on Mon Jul 02 2012, 10:48

There is usually an engine number etc stamped on the crankcase near the cylinder base Paul, often covered by paint. Have a root around, you may just find something? Not a JAP expert myself, though I do have a few 2A's scattered about!

Pete.

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Re: JAP - 4/b? 4/f? something else?

Post by pauldg on Mon Jul 02 2012, 11:48

Hi Pete,

Thanks for that, but...

I've scraped every flat surface I can find (as well as some not so flat ones) and there is no sign of an engine number on it at all. There is a military 'crow's foot' or 'arrow head' stamp with a 'C' under it on the drive end of the crank and I know quite a few engine manufacturers didn't bother with numbers for military supply so that could be a reason.

I don't think the number has been ground off or anything as there are other stamps I can see, namely some patent numbers and the 'JAP' in a circle with a number or letter (have to look into those more and see if they're any good for dating).

I'll be putting some more about it in the 'restorations' section soon, even though it's not undergoing a 'traditional' restoration as such.

Cheers, Paul

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Re: JAP - 4/b? 4/f? something else?

Post by pauldg on Thu Jul 12 2012, 21:55

Due to photos very kindly supplied by Bill I think I've come to the conclusion that this is a 4/B.

Now I'd just like to know if there's any rarity to it - not that it'll affect what happens to it...

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Re: JAP - 4/b? 4/f? something else?

Post by stationary stu on Fri Jul 13 2012, 10:33

Paul there's a lot of Jap engines about but whether there the same as your's how knows. Up in the North East there's never many small engines on display at rallies, I think people buy them, restore them but keep them in the shed. Saying that stationary engines is not a big thing up here and you tend to know most people that have engines if not by name by site. So maybe down South you might find out easier if there more of a rarity or not.

Stu.

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Re: JAP - 4/b? 4/f? something else?

Post by pauldg on Fri Jul 13 2012, 22:38

To be honest I haven't actually been to that many rallies so I don't know if small engines are more popular down this way or not...

I have heard of a few people being turned away because they only had small engines though - not sure if that's 'normal' or if there were other reasons too.

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Re: JAP - 4/b? 4/f? something else?

Post by stationary stu on Sat Jul 14 2012, 10:45

Paul some shows won't allow air cooled engines it's to try and stop the engine ticket people getting free weekends to shows. To make that clear some people normally with a motor home or caravan take a small Jap engine or similar to get in to a rally for free, normally the engine just sits all weekend and is never started while it's owner wonders around the show. I've seen this a few times and there's normally a few camping together and the only time they touch there engine is to move it and stand the BBQ there. Yes you can gather I don't like these people and I've seen them plenty of times, even to them asking about for a small engine so a friend can go to the rallies with them. Mad Mad Mad

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Re: JAP - 4/b? 4/f? something else?

Post by pauldg on Sat Jul 14 2012, 10:52

Well, maybe I'll be lucky - if I have something like this one (when it's done) and a display type thingy with the petter they might just realise it's not a free-ticket engine...

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Re: JAP - 4/b? 4/f? something else?

Post by stationary stu on Sat Jul 14 2012, 10:55

Paul it's normally the smaller Japs like the 2a, but you could have problems with the large shows, I don't think they would let you on to say the Great Dorset Steam Fair with it.

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Re: JAP - 4/b? 4/f? something else?

Post by pauldg on Sat Jul 14 2012, 14:16

Well, unless anyone is interested in watching me clean and paint then rebuild stuff I don't think there's much chance of me even thinking about showing this year!

Then again, maybe a 'working restoration in progress' exhibit might work Laughing

Having a few small engines all doing something might make a difference, rather than just one common engine not attached to anything. I'm hoping the type of shows I'm interested in would like the variety.

I'm not knocking them in any way, but it's got to be at least as good as 'another green D' surely? If not, I'll have to take up the offer I had recently of 2 Ds, one of each rotation, both runners... In fact, if I clear some space they're cheap enough that I'll probably get those anyway. The only reason I haven't got them already is I have nowhere to put them right now - I'm not allowed anything else under a tarp on the patio.

It's all theoretical at the moment - we'll see what happens.

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Re: JAP - 4/b? 4/f? something else?

Post by nutgone on Sat Jul 14 2012, 15:06

The rallies I go to are relatively small, I wouldn't want to go to the Great Dorset, as I've heard too many stories of stuff going missing, (& certain types I won't mention, for fear of the PC brigade getting on my back).

However, most of the rallies I go to ask that you run your engine for a certain amount of time, or at least spend a certain amount of time with your exhibit, each day.

I think to deny access to air cooled or smaller engines is just plain wrong, & wreaks of snobbery IMO, & I'm glad to say none of the rallies I attend undertake such measures. They do, however, keep an eye on their exhibitors, which is why I've had to grovel to the marshals at the last 2 events, as my Tarpen wasn't running. They agreed it was indeed better than a "no-show".

Down this way you see lots of smaller engines & plenty of air cooled stuff at the rallies, but these aren't specialist stationary engine rallies (I don't even know if such events even exist) they are just standard "Steam Rally" type events, with cars, bikes, tractors, military, buses, lorries, vans, craft etc etc etc.

Most "Free Ticket" types down here take an old push-bike, they dump it there & wander about all show. I can understand why they do it, but I can't say I like it.
The Free Ticket types get on my nerves too, but I've found they've long since moved away from stationary engines down here, mostly. (they probably got fed up with all the dodgy looks & remarks they were getting!)

I even feel like a bit of a fraud myself, as the last 3 years I've only taken my car to the rallies, which involves just dumping it in a field & enjoying the show for the weekend. But it's such a boring way to go, which is why I'm getting the Tarpen going, it'll give me something to do!

So yes Paul, you should be fine with your little JAP down this way. Even better if it's running something or accompanied by another engine, of any type.

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Re: JAP - 4/b? 4/f? something else?

Post by pauldg on Sat Jul 14 2012, 15:12

Well, I went through my pile of alternators (that's exaggerating a little, I have 3...) and one of them doesn't have the usual black plastic end cover. That'll be the thing this engine will be driving - that was always the intention.

I'll take some photos of it tonight and add them to the resto thread.

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Re: JAP - 4/b? 4/f? something else?

Post by nutgone on Sat Jul 14 2012, 16:05

Some of the 90s Honda & Rover car alternators used to have a kind of "old fashioned" look to them. I thought so anyway. I always thought a coat of engine enamel would make them look good.

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Re: JAP - 4/b? 4/f? something else?

Post by pauldg on Sat Jul 14 2012, 21:24

I went all Swedish for the alternator and I'm using one off a Vovlo (ok, German - it's a Bosch unit...)

Pics in the resto thread.

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Re: JAP - 4/b? 4/f? something else?

Post by stationary stu on Sun Jul 15 2012, 11:00

It's good to hear the engine ticket people (not what I'd like to call them) have now moved on to push bikes and I hope now that some of the rallies see sense and allow air cooled engines in. There takes as much time and money to restore say a Petter A1 as it does to restore a Wolseley WD8, there the same size output etc and even mix-matched to get a water cooled Petter A1 with a water type hopper.
I've a lot of small air cooled engines now and that's what I'm looking to show once my back has given out all together, there's an old guy (must be in his 70-80) shows in the North East and has 4 small air cooled coz that's all he can manage to lift/start now adays, he puts on a good little display with lights etc and that's what I'll be doing before to long.
Paul I'm not saying your an old guy BTW Laughing Laughing Laughing just showing how air cooled engines should be allowed on the rally field, it's not as if there is ever that many engines shown and we don't take up a lot of space and most of the time SE's are stuck in the corner out of the way of most people anyways.

Stu.

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Re: JAP - 4/b? 4/f? something else?

Post by pauldg on Wed Jul 18 2012, 21:42

Yeah, me being old or not depends on which side you're looking from!

I think the little air cooled engines get more stick than they deserve. Are water cooled machines so much more 'historically important'?

I know they are less to look at, especially if they aren't running anything - but if you put some effort into it why be excluded?

Now, I have nothing at all against larger, open, water cooled machines or any others - I certainly wouldn't turn one down if it comes up at the right price, but I wouldn't refuse another little engine either.

Paul

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Re: JAP - 4/b? 4/f? something else?

Post by nutgone on Wed Jul 18 2012, 22:16

I quite like the variety with the air cooled engines, I know I'll probably get lynched for saying this, but I do find the mid sized, water cooled open cranks a bit "seen one seen 'em all" sometimes.

I would love another water cooled engine, but I can't really transport one & can't afford the money they attract these days. I find, round here, most of the air cooled stuff is usually running something, whereas a lot of the water cooled, & many of the open crankers don't seem to be running anything, I'm not sure weather they're afraid to make them work? In reality they're probably doing them more harm by not working them.

I guess it's different wherever you go, I can only really comment on my little corner of the country & how I perceive things.

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Re: JAP - 4/b? 4/f? something else?

Post by pauldg on Wed Jul 18 2012, 22:49

Running something off load is certainly the best way to glaze everything up...

I guess we'll just see how much I get moaned at and/or turned away for having small air-coolers then...

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Re: JAP - 4/b? 4/f? something else?

Post by stationary stu on Thu Jul 19 2012, 10:24

Paul like I've said it's just the big rallies that you'll find a problem, saying that I wonder how the big rallies can say how many Lister D's or Wolseley Wd's they will allow, I've never been to GDSF so I wonder how they sort out engines, is it a case of the first 3 D's get in coz i'm sure you could fill a field with just D's. Although I supose the same could be said about a few things like how many little grey fergies do the let on? I'd like to know the answer if anyone has the inside information.
Paul it might just be a case of wait and see if you do have any problems then take it up with the rally organiser why they won't allow an air cooled engine on to the rally. Just remember that there's even air cooled open crank engines about so would they turn one of them away!!!

Stu.

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Re: JAP - 4/b? 4/f? something else?

Post by nutgone on Thu Jul 19 2012, 12:05

Quite right.

I have literally just spoken to a stationary engine marshal, I was after a late entry for the Festival Of Transport in Hellingly, East Sussex, in the August bank-holiday. Turns out he lives in the same road as me, he came down this morning to bring me some passes, pick up some forms & have a chat.

Well, I was quite surprised to learn that they either don't let or only let a few, small Villiers engines in (like the Mk15 etc.) His words were "there's too many people who just use them to get into the show, because they're easy to put in the car". We both agreed it's a bit different if someone's entering a few engines & if they're running something, & we agreed it's a shame, as they're a good little engine for youngsters to get started in the hobby, but sadly there are people who are prepared to ruin all this for a weekend's free camping & rally entry.

I don't know what the answer is, I can't say I agree with it, but also I've never really liked the small Villiers engines (I prefer the JAPs myself Very Happy ) I personally think anything with a re-coil start is too modern for a rally, but now someone will come along & tell me they've got some rare 1930s engine with a re-coil start!

I think the best thing to do is, if you want to take smaller air cooled engines, take more than one, make a good "exhibit" of them, at least one should be running something, & above all, make it all look nice, include a board with some information for people to read & include as much of this detail as possible with your entry forms, so the organisers know you're not just after a free weekend ticket.

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Re: JAP - 4/b? 4/f? something else?

Post by stationary stu on Fri Jul 20 2012, 10:54

Your right in everything your saying as I stated it's the engine ticket people looking for a free weekend that's spoiling it. I think it could be worth including a few pics of the engines you have and send them with the entry form. A good few years back I cancelled attending a one day rally because I couldn't get my engine to run correctly to be told it doesn't matter if I ran it or not. I still went along for the day (without an engine) and I noticed 2 engines stood the whole time I was there (3-4 hours) they never ran and never even had anyone with them so what is the point of showing an engine if it doesn't even run!!!

Stu.

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Re: JAP - 4/b? 4/f? something else?

Post by pauldg on Thu Jul 26 2012, 12:27

Sometimes, depending on the engine, I can see the point of exhibiting a non-runner. Cases like that are few and far between though.

We'll just have to see how it goes - I might just have to take the attitude that if they won't let me in, I don't want to go anyway Laughing

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Re: JAP - 4/b? 4/f? something else?

Post by stationary stu on Fri Jul 27 2012, 10:22

That's the way Paul, stuff the lot of them. lol! lol! lol!

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Re: JAP - 4/b? 4/f? something else?

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