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Very old Briggs and Stratton

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Re: Very old Briggs and Stratton

Post by Smitty on Sat Mar 09 2013, 22:34

Ianhw77k wrote:Not having looked at it very closely myself, why do you think a worn throttle spindle would be causing running problems in this carb? I wouldn't have thought it would make much difference.

Hello Ian,

I may be speaking out of turn here and I am surely not an expert, but the difference can almost be the same as having a leaky intake gasket sucking in more air into the mixture thus leaning it out, possibly burning into the top of the piston due to hotter gasses from combustion or causing the X valve to overheat and burn the sealing edge or worse, the seat itself.
In much worse cases this can eventually end up in piston or valve failures or seisure of the rings and damaging or destroying the cylinder.

Not to worry as stationary running with no loads most likely will tolerate the differences to a point (The Briggs is forced air cooled, and thus better resistant to overheating as well), and the fluttering of the butterfly itself (if indeed it does) on a worn spindle combined with the air rushing by the spindle (balanced mixture vapor is disrupted) may simply cause an irratic running engine for which there is no adjustment available.

I found that the the Briggs's and Tecumseh's are sensitive to that the same as some other engines are as well.
It's not likely to do that kind of damage in stationary running, but evident in many lawn mowers, motorbikes and automobiles which run under load all the time.

Air is basically a mixture of Oxygen and Hydrogen, both corrosive and volatile in their own respect, and more air means more heat which all together is detrimental to parts trying to survive in an already volatile and borderline environment.
Everything wants to destroy everything else in there in the first place. Everything is a trade off and balance is the mediator.
Tight tolerances will control that better than loose ones in the caburettor.

Hope I didn't go over the top with this, but it hit my fancy Very Happy

Regards, John.


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Re: Very old Briggs and Stratton

Post by Smitty on Sat Mar 09 2013, 22:46

She's a looker!

Hope that the remedy works for you, and no reason it shouldn't.
As for wear and durability, who knows, that's why we do it Laughing Laughing
To confound the eggheads!!

It's just that I am not familiar with the materials and results, and the reason I stick with the older school things.
Shows my age dunnit?

Too bad, I am learning!! affraid yep I am, and soon I'll have the technology!!

Good show Nut, you'll have it ticking like a swiss piece in a bit cause I know it'll work,

Regards John.

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Re: Very old Briggs and Stratton

Post by nutgone on Sat Mar 09 2013, 23:17

I also smeared a bit of instant gasket around the end of the spindle (the end without the throttle linkage, as this seemed worse). I kept rotating it as it went off, & it may help, it may not. It may just fall off.

I'm not so sure JB Weld is the best thing to use to build up this spindle, but I thought solder may be too soft. I'm on a bit of a learning curve myself here too, but I've had good results with JB in the past, & it seems harder & more durable than the metal putty I also use.

But, as the spindle never makes a full rotation, it also never wears evenly (as I saw when I sanded off most of the glue, to reveal where the low spots once were). Unfortunately this also translates to the bushes, which are worn "out of round", but they are in much better shape than the spindle was.

I'm sure it will help with the running of this engine, but there's only so far you can go with an 82 year old carb (& yes, the date stamps on it suggest it is indeed the original, I could probably tell you which day of the week it was manufactured on as well). As carbs go it is pretty knackered (an engineering term Very Happy ) But I like making knackered things work again. I've skimmed all the needle surfaces on this one, as best I can with a drill & various abrasive surfaces (every one had a ridge on it, even the float needle), sadly I can't re-face the seats, but they shouldn't matter as much.

Hopefully when I fire her up on Monday she'll run a bit better. She was running pretty well anyway, but there was definitely room for improvement.

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Re: Very old Briggs and Stratton

Post by Andrew1971 on Sun Mar 10 2013, 12:31

The carb shaft it's a good bodge but in a good way. There's no reason way it should not work the least it can do
is make her run better. She's looking good Nut's keep up the good work.
Andrew

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Re: Very old Briggs and Stratton

Post by stationary stu on Sun Mar 10 2013, 12:35

Fingers crossed for Monday and she runs fine for you Nuts.

Stu.

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Re: Very old Briggs and Stratton

Post by nutgone on Sun Mar 10 2013, 20:42

Well, no need to wait until Monday, I got back a bit earlier than expected today, so I fired her up.

Great news, she's running much better than before. I'm sure the spindle isn't exactly like new, & the bushes are fairly worn, but it's still much better than it was. Running much smoother now & picks up really well on change of throttle.

I suppose now I will have to re-adjust the needle settings on the main & idle jets just slightly, but there's not much to that job. Then I've really got to think about making up some tank mountings. I bought some arc welding rods at the autojumble today, which should be more suitable to the thinner metals & hopefully will work better on Ian's new Lidl welder (I might dry them out in an oven first, as they were 2nd hand, but will probably be fine, just like to be on the safe side & improve my chances as much as possible). I just need to get some practise in now, then see about welding something up for it. (If my welding is ever up to it).

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Re: Very old Briggs and Stratton

Post by stationary stu on Mon Mar 11 2013, 11:50

Nuts as you say it's best to make sure your rods are dry, try keeping them in the airing cupboard and just take them out when you need them. I can see one problem with the boss of the house but I'm sure you spoiled her yesterday (Mother's day if you forgot Laughing ) so she should be sweet for a few days to come Laughing Laughing Laughing

As you say it's practice when it comes to welding and you need good penitration for best results. It doesn't matter to much if it's a bit snotty as you can clean it off with a grinder later.

Stu.

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Re: Very old Briggs and Stratton

Post by nutgone on Mon Mar 11 2013, 13:17

Yes, my main problem with welding practise is a lack of metal stock to practise on. I've only got tinware, & the rods I had were too thick. Once I got the amps high enough to get them working it was too hot for the metal & ended up just blowing holes in it. Now I've got some thinner rods I can have another go.

When I first went to college, after I left school (back in 1995-1997) I was very good at Arc welding, but that was with much thicker stuff. I couldn't get the hang of MIG, but I think that was more to do with setting up the machine properly. I was also very good at TIG welding with feeder rods, which is very similar to gas welding (just hotter & more localised). We weren't even required to do gas welding for our course, as even then it was deemed to old fashioned, but I did some anyway. I found that stuff (the TIG & gas welding, with manual feeding of rods) very much like really hot brazing, which is like really hot soldering, both of which I was also good at. I wasn't too bad at TIG fusion welding, but it's still quite easy to blow holes in sheet work with that.

Funny I never mastered the MIG, everyone says that's the easiest. My Arc was top of the class though, my MIG piece broke apart in the vice of the mechanical hacksaw (we had to cut through the test pieces to see how good the penetration was). I just couldn't get the hang of having the filler rod fed for me, always preferred to do it myself.

The trouble is that was all 16+ years ago, & apart from soldering I've never done any of it since.

It's snowing here today, & I don't weld inside the workshop, there's now 4 classic bikes in there, as well as the 2 freshly painted engines & lots of combustibles, so I prefer to wait for the weather to clear up & practise my welding outside.

If I have any real trouble with it I might start another thread, asking for basic welding tips. But I should be able to manage, I think I can remember the very basics, the rest is sure to come back, in time.

I also got some brazing rods in my collection (I bought a job lot of part packs of various different rods for a fiver at the autojumble), & I think my dad's Map-Gas torch is hot enough for brazing, so I might have a practise with that as well.

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Re: Very old Briggs and Stratton

Post by stationary stu on Tue Mar 12 2013, 13:41

Well I have to admit that Tig welding wasn't about when I was at college so only did gas and stick, never did any mig as that was reasonably new as well and they didn't have any in our section but the fabrictors did. I remember doing a solder test to see whos was best, soldered 2 bits of tin together then put it in a streaching machine, most (including mine) just fell apart as soon as any pressure was placed on it. Yet the lecturer did the same and got some stupidly high reading on his solder (can't remember exact figure) around the 5ton mark not bad for a soldered joint.
I started work for a company that had a mig welder, I had a mess about with it thought it was great and I've used nothing else since, I would like to try tig welding as it looks a better job can be done.
I have to say with mig welding I tend to turn it to the top and then turn it back to get the best setting rather then turn it up to get the best setting. My complaint if it is one is the amount of waste you have if the welding wire sticks and you need to sort it. I have the gasless mig a lot better for outside welding as the flame goes out on the gas ones when used in the wind.

Stu.

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Re: Very old Briggs and Stratton

Post by nutgone on Tue Mar 12 2013, 18:31

See, people have told me not to bother with gasless MIG, but then "people" say a lot of things, don't they? The machines are certainly cheaper than the gas ones, I might even save up a few pennies & start looking.

If you can gas weld & braze any good, then you can use a TIG gun & filler rod, it's very much the same principle, except you obviously need a steady hand to keep the arc at the same rate (much like with an arc or MIG welder).

I've bought an auto-darkening mask, it's not a full face one though, it was the cheapest one available on eBay, & is basically like a pair of safety goggles. But it is safe for use with electric welders. I can either put the auto-darkening bit in a full face mask, or just wear them as goggles & use the hand held shield mask that came with the welder, without the glass in it. Or I can just use the goggles & not bother with the full face bit, but I managed to splash myself on the lip the other day with molten solder (bloody lucky it wasn't my eyes), & I discovered that, as I suspected, molten metal really hurts when it hits your face! So I would prefer full face protection when welding. This is the one I got....



Like I say, they work well & protect the eyes up to the required standard, just don't offer full face protection. I used them the other day & they were very good.

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Re: Very old Briggs and Stratton

Post by stationary stu on Wed Mar 13 2013, 13:04

I managed to pick up a cheap full face mask (fits to head) with auto darkening, makes things a lot easier with 2 free hands.
Nuts sorry about your burnt lip but you'll find out that you have to be suitably dressed when welding, don't try welding in the Summer if you wear shorts and sandles, a burnt little pinky hurts like hell Crying or Very sad Laughing Laughing Laughing also nylon type jogger bottoms are a no no also. Laughing Laughing Laughing

Stu.

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Re: Very old Briggs and Stratton

Post by nutgone on Wed Mar 13 2013, 16:20

stationary stu wrote:I managed to pick up a cheap full face mask (fits to head) with auto darkening, makes things a lot easier with 2 free hands.
Nuts sorry about your burnt lip but you'll find out that you have to be suitably dressed when welding, don't try welding in the Summer if you wear shorts and sandles, a burnt little pinky hurts like hell Crying or Very sad Laughing Laughing Laughing also nylon type jogger bottoms are a no no also. Laughing Laughing Laughing

Stu.

That's good, because I never wear shorts & wouldn't be seen dead in jogging bottoms or sandals! I only ever wear jeans & proper boots (or trainer type boots with steel toe caps). Even when I was on holiday in the south of France back in 2010 (& 2009) with temperatures up to around 35 degC I never wore shorts, always jeans.

I don't think British men should show their legs or their feet, no matter what the weather.

Anyway, the goggles will do for now, but I will be getting a helmet. I might get a full see-thru one, so I can use it for other jobs (like on the bench grinder, or using the dremmel or angle grinder) & put the welding goggles on underneath it when I'm welding. It'll save me buying 2 helmets (one for welding & one for other work), especially as I've now got the goggles & they work well at protecting the eyes against the welding arc.

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Re: Very old Briggs and Stratton

Post by stationary stu on Thu Mar 14 2013, 11:46

I once had to do some welding but it was very dark where I was working so decided to get a lighter lens (shade) so I could maybe see what I was doing a bit better, well after 4 seconds of welding I changed the lens over as I didn't think it was safe to continue with the lighter lenses, (they must be for gas welding) so lesson learnt, don't try and use something that it's not designed for (more so for eyes as a welding flash is very nasty).

Has the weather improved yet so you can practice a bit more welding?

Stu.

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Re: Very old Briggs and Stratton

Post by nutgone on Thu Mar 14 2013, 13:06

Yep, the sun's out today, so I will probably have another go.

I know the welding lens you mean, they are fir gas welding & brazing, they used to come on goggles, which is what made me dubious about buying the ones I did, but they are definitely for electric welding, & they seem to work really well.

I'm a bit worried about the cats though, they like to sit the other side of the cat flap watching me weld. It is a tinted plastic cat flap, but I wouldn't want them getting arc eye!

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Re: Very old Briggs and Stratton

Post by stationary stu on Fri Mar 15 2013, 13:32

Nuts I have a few kids local to me (neighbours) that I was worried about but I think there would have been far enough away so it didn't effect them. So just to be on the safe side I used to put a large cardboard box (opened out flat) to make a screen and put it around where they were at in there garden. It takes me ages to set up to weld not just putting the screens up I have to position the welder as far away as possable and I cover it with foam from some old seats. The reason being I have an electronic implant to help with the pain and I had to get in touch with the manufacturer to see how safe it would be so they gave me a list turn off implant (very important) and then welder has to be away from me and the torch as far away and weld at arms length, yes it is awkward but at least I can still do some welding. The implant is in the lefthand side of my stomach so I also tend to wear a thick jacket when I weld.

Stu.

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Re: Very old Briggs and Stratton

Post by nutgone on Fri Mar 15 2013, 14:36

Blimey Stu, most people just wouldn't bother, so good on you for carrying on & doing it safely. Must be difficult welding at arms length?

Anyway, I had a little more practise yesterday & it's all coming back to me now. I'm better with the thicker metal, but I still don't have any really thin rods to practise on the thin sheet stuff, mine go down to 2mm, but even with low amps it's still blowing holes in the metal I'm using.

So, I got some thick metal pipe off-cuts from the sidecar fittings tub & welded them together. I made 3 small pieces of pipe into one long piece & practised a few straight lines along some of it. The pipes still leak if you blow through them, but it's all good practise & is going very well.

I just need more thick metal now to play with. Might have to take a trip over to my friend's skip yard, see what's laying about there.

If I had enough to have a few attempts I would have a go at some tank mountings for this engine (the Briggs). My mate who's converting an old Scandinavian army boat into a live-aboard/dive boat has taken loads of heavy angle iron & various other sections of stuff off, maybe I should ask him as well. Last time I was there I saw loads which could be useful to me.

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Re: Very old Briggs and Stratton

Post by Smitty on Sat Mar 16 2013, 02:32

nutgone wrote:See, people have told me not to bother with gasless MIG, but then "people" say a lot of things, don't they? The machines are certainly cheaper than the gas ones, I might even save up a few pennies & start looking.

If you can gas weld & braze any good, then you can use a TIG gun & filler rod, it's very much the same principle, except you obviously need a steady hand to keep the arc at the same rate (much like with an arc or MIG welder).

I've bought an auto-darkening mask, it's not a full face one though, it was the cheapest one available on eBay, & is basically like a pair of safety goggles. But it is safe for use with electric welders. I can either put the auto-darkening bit in a full face mask, or just wear them as goggles & use the hand held shield mask that came with the welder, without the glass in it. Or I can just use the goggles & not bother with the full face bit, but I managed to splash myself on the lip the other day with molten solder (bloody lucky it wasn't my eyes), & I discovered that, as I suspected, molten metal really hurts when it hits your face! So I would prefer full face protection when welding. This is the one I got....



Like I say, they work well & protect the eyes up to the required standard, just don't offer full face protection. I used them the other day & they were very good.

Nut, the thing they didn't tell you that without skin protection you will absorb a lot of UV and you will burn skin where it is exposed to welding arcs.
What really scares me with the mask (which does looks right handy though IMHO.) is that your face will be only inches away from the arc and thus from the UV and other rays also. You may end up looking like a Disney character criminal with the face mask lol.
I have had a bad "sun" burn (from welding) on the bicep of my left arm which has left me with a ton of brown spots from those welding burns and exposure to the arc lght that happens when welding.
My Doctor was very leary of those, as he thought that maybe I could end up with problems at an older age from them. That never happened but I still do have the spots.
My advice would be full coverage if a LOT of welding is going to take place, including hands and all skin, avoid the smoke from welding sticks, and do NOT wear anything polyester or nylon, but preferably cotton, as the former will melt onto your skin with sparks flying about.
Please take care, John.

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Re: Very old Briggs and Stratton

Post by nutgone on Sat Mar 16 2013, 11:30

Cheers John, I thought I had caught the sun a bit the other day (seriously, I looked in the bathroom mirror just before going to bed & thought to myself "I look like I've been in the sun, it must've been the welding".

What I would like to do now is buy an empty full face welding helmet/mask, & put the lens from these goggles into it.

Anyway, I'm not likely to do much welding, it will be very occasional. I will probably do more practise than anything else. The most I do is use about 2 or 3 sticks, then do something else.

Thanks for the advice though, I appreciate it. I bet in some Chinese factories these goggles is all they get for protection! Shocked

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Re: Very old Briggs and Stratton

Post by stationary stu on Sat Mar 16 2013, 11:41

I don't think any of us weld that much as for this to be a worry but as John says the fumes are very dangerous. I know a guy that's a full-time welder and he has throat cancer due to inhaling the fumes from welding. This is not something that happened after a few hours but at least 10 years but just pointing out another risk.It's a great hobby, welding fumes, lead paint, and I'm sure there'll be asbestos about somewhere so it might sound over protective but wear a face mask if there's any chance of airborne dust as it could serious;y hurt you.

Stu.

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Re: Very old Briggs and Stratton

Post by nutgone on Mon Jun 03 2013, 18:39

OK, so after last weekend's rally I have dug up a few of these old threads, now it's the turn of this one.

The Briggs ran reasonably well for it's first proper show, but it had a couple of carb problems, much of which seemed to sort itself out over time (I think we should put a more modern Briggs carb on there to get it running better, but obviously still keep the original somewhere safe, as it's such an uncommon or (dare I say it) "rare" engine I doubt anyone would notice).

Our major problem by far though was spark plug fouling. Almost every time we had to re-start it the plug would need cleaning. Also, on re-starting, it would smoke quite badly for a while.

So, as I'm putting an order in across the pond for piston rings, I wondered if we should order some for this engine as well. Ian said the piston was sloppy in the bore & that was likely to be the problem, so I said I would go & get the barrel off (leaving the head in place to preserve the head gasket), remove the piston & have a measure-up (this engine lives with me, in the rather overcrowded workshop).

It came apart easy enough, as you would expect, but there was an awful lot of oil on top of the piston & inside the head. In fact I don't think I've ever seen so much oil on the wrong side of a piston, I wouldn't even put an engine together with that much oil on the piston!....



So off it came & I set about checking the piston in the bore. It was quite sloppy, about 7 or 8 thou' with a feeler, but although that's quite excessive for a 2.75" bore, it's not that bad (the engine is not likely to be pressed into active service any time soon) & I think I can live with it like that. Also it's an aluminium alloy piston, which is quite odd for such an old engine, so I wonder if they were made a bit sloppy for heat expansion (these were the early days of such metallurgy), I know the Kohler has a 2" bore & the pistons are supposed to have a 2 thou' fit, but they're cast iron, & smaller, so would naturally have a tighter fit. I will have a look through my Briggs manual & see if it mentions piston fit anywhere, but I'm not about to start re-boring & sleeving it down.

So, then came the rings. I pushed the first ring in there, nice & square, with the base of the piston (not too far up, it's supposed to be the area of least wear in the bore, not that it matters that much, as long as it's not tested in the top lip, or anywhere above about middle of stroke). I reached for the feelers again, but on inspection I saw I wouldn't need them.

Can you make this out....



Here's all 3 rings together....



Now, I was going to say (as was Ian) not to bother with a replacement oil scraper ring, but judging by that gap I think I should!

No wonder the damn thing was so smoky, I'm surprised it had any compression at all! Just goes to show what these engines will run like. Maybe we won't have such a bad oil leak from the crank shaft once the rings are replaced???

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Re: Very old Briggs and Stratton

Post by nutgone on Mon Jun 03 2013, 18:50

What I want to know is, why didn't I gap test them when I rebuilt it a few months back???

I think I was under the impression that rings for this engine would be either very expensive or very hard to get (I certainly wasn't expecting them to be $5 each plus postage). & the engine was running all those years ago, so I never bothered to gap test the rings.

I still haven't bothered on a lot of engines, it's something I am beginning to do more & more as I progress in the hobby. Trouble is, on a lot of these engines, the rings are expensive & hard to find, so as long as it runs it usually ends up with the old rings back in.

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Re: Very old Briggs and Stratton

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