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Petter A1 sump oil ???? what grade / type please

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Petter A1 sump oil ???? what grade / type please

Post by matfink on Wed Jul 25 2012, 17:20

Hi, can anyone suggest the right/best sump oil to use to refill my Petter A1 engine? what grade / type please

Thanks in advance
Matt

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Re: Petter A1 sump oil ???? what grade / type please

Post by nutgone on Wed Jul 25 2012, 17:49

Personally I would just use any old multigrade. There are some purists who insist on paying through the nose for the old fashioned single grades, but I really don't see that as necessary for these old engines, the tolerances are so loose it really won't make any difference.

Maybe go to a mower shop & put whatever they recommend for Briggs & Stratton engines? But you can get some reasonable general multigrade oils cheap enough from supermarkets these days, which will do the job just fine.

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Re: Petter A1 sump oil ???? what grade / type please

Post by Foden on Wed Jul 25 2012, 18:20

I agree with Nutgone, I use Wilkinsons 20-50 in my engines with no problems. It costs about £8 for 5 litres, and a Petter A holds quite a lot compared to other engines such as Lister D and Wolseley etc! Cool

Pete.

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Re: Petter A1 sump oil ???? what grade / type please

Post by blackvanman on Wed Jul 25 2012, 18:37

Quite aggree with the above myself 10w40 would probably be fine, you also have to remember we (must of us) are not running these engines day in day out under heavy load either plus we don't generaly have things like oil being too thick or thin for things like hydrolic tappets etc to worry about like most modern engines lol.

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Re: Petter A1 sump oil ???? what grade / type please

Post by hob on Wed Jul 25 2012, 20:59

just remember it must be mineral oil, there were no synthetic oils in those days and the old engines were not designed to run on modern oils with chemical cleaners in them.

my Petter A1 took about 6 1\2 pints of oil last time i did an oil change so get a gallon \ 5 liter can to make sure you have enough.

if i remember correctly it was in a blue plastic can from tesco

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Re: Petter A1 sump oil ???? what grade / type please

Post by nutgone on Wed Jul 25 2012, 21:33

hob wrote:just remember it must be mineral oil, there were no synthetic oils in those days and the old engines were not designed to run on modern oils with chemical cleaners in them.

my Petter A1 took about 6 1\2 pints of oil last time i did an oil change so get a gallon \ 5 liter can to make sure you have enough.

if i remember correctly it was in a blue plastic can from tesco

Very Happy

Yes but synthetic oils & additives like chemical cleaners will not do these engines any harm whatsoever. You could use them quite safely in a turn of the century open crank with no ill effects, if anything they would do the engine good.

The difference between mineral & synthetic oils is only important when you have man-made oil seals to consider, like in modern diesel car engines & the like.

I used to use recycled engine oils in my stationary engines, because it was the cheapest. No one ever seems to run these engines at anywhere near their original loadings anyway, & none of them ever seem to clock up many hours at the occasional steam rally,
you could probably put used chip oil in them & they'd run for years lol! (don't try this at home kids).

I've currently got a semi-synthetic diesel engine oil in my oil can, simply because that's what was on the shelf in the workshop.

You can buy the old fashioned single grade oils, supposedly without all the modern additives, but they are extremely expensive. You'll find most modern oils, weather they're mineral, synthetic, semi-synthetic, expensive, cheap, or just supermarket own brand, will contain the modern chemical cleaners.

I doubt you'll need to change it that often either, unless you're running in after new parts (like rings, liners or bearing shells) in which case you should be using either running-in oil or old engine oil, & change it after quite a short time.

Unfortunately I think Tesco have discontinued their "Value Petrol Engine Oil" otherwise I would've recommended that. They used to sell it in 1 litre containers, but stopped it a couple of years back, IIRC.

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Re: Petter A1 sump oil ???? what grade / type please

Post by Ianhw77k on Wed Jul 25 2012, 22:05

Yeah, I wouldn't go for fully synthetic as it will sound like a bag of nails! Generally with these old engines I say the cheaper the better. I service Briggs and Stratton engines on lawn mowers quite a lot and even on these engines I just use whatever is handy (lets face it, Briggs haven't really moved on since the 30s Rolling Eyes ) My mower runs on the little bit of leftover diesel engine oil from my car service, I've raised the revs on the governor by quite a lot and it sees plenty of hard use with no ill effects so an old engine like a Petter, enjoying a nice relaxing retirement at steam rallies won't be very demanding at all Wink

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Re: Petter A1 sump oil ???? what grade / type please

Post by hob on Wed Jul 25 2012, 22:20

nutgone wrote:


Yes but synthetic oils & additives like chemical cleaners will not do these engines any harm whatsoever. You could use them quite safely in a turn of the century open crank with no ill effects, if anything they would do the engine good.

The difference between mineral & synthetic oils is only important when you have man-made oil seals to consider, like in modern diesel car engines & the like.


I've currently got a semi-synthetic diesel engine oil in my oil can, simply because that's what was on the shelf in the workshop.

You can buy the old fashioned single grade oils, supposedly without all the modern additives, but they are extremely expensive. You'll find most modern oils, weather they're mineral, synthetic, semi-synthetic, expensive, cheap, or just supermarket own brand, will contain the modern chemical cleaners.

I doubt you'll need to change it that often either, unless you're running in after new parts (like rings, liners or bearing shells) in which case you should be using either running-in oil or old engine oil, & change it after quite a short time.

Unfortunately I think Tesco have discontinued their "Value Petrol Engine Oil" otherwise I would've recommended that. They used to sell it in 1 litre containers, but stopped it a couple of years back, IIRC.

i hate to disagree............... but i'm going to anyway..........synthetic oils are not advised to be used in old engines for all sorts of reasons

please refer to this topic

http://www.stationaryengineforum.net/t3539-which-oil

I've currently got a semi-synthetic diesel engine oil in my oil can, simply because that's what was on the shelf in the workshop.

i think there is a lot of difference between using it in a squirt can and putting it in a sump for engine lubrication ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

I doubt you'll need to change it that often either, unless you're running in after new parts (like rings, liners or bearing shells) in which case you should be using either running-in oil or old engine oil, & change it after quite a short time.

Castrol informed me that oil that is more than 2 years old should not be used.

Unfortunately I think Tesco have discontinued their "Value Petrol Engine Oil" otherwise I would've recommended that. They used to sell it in 1 litre containers, but stopped it a couple of years back, IIRC.

i bought 6 liters there last year

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Re: Petter A1 sump oil ???? what grade / type please

Post by nutgone on Wed Jul 25 2012, 22:28

Just because Castrol tell you something doesn't make it fact, they want to sell you oil, of course they will tell you this.

A fully synthetic, of the correct grade will be fine in these engines, take it from someone who is a qualified engineer & very experienced in vintage & modern mechanics. Although I doubt anyone would use one, as it's too expensive.

Good to know Tesco still do Value stuff, but I can't find any round here. (& was actually told by a member of their staff that it was discontinued, although I couldn't tell you when this was)

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Re: Petter A1 sump oil ???? what grade / type please

Post by hob on Wed Jul 25 2012, 22:41

nutgone wrote:
take it from someone who is a qualified engineer & very experienced in vintage & modern mechanics. Although I doubt anyone would use one, as it's too expensive.


i.m a qualified engineer too. and i still would not use even semi synthetic oil ...........and i'm old enough to be vintage Shocked

guess we will have to agree to disagree

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Re: Petter A1 sump oil ???? what grade / type please

Post by DanBoy on Thu Jul 26 2012, 08:37

I think that you are both right. The stationary engine was designed in the era of single grade mineral oils and, therefore will run happily on that. As technology wasn't particularly advanced and some engines were subject to long and arduous use I am sure that there would have been a recommendation for regular oil changes. As times have moved on and oil engineering has improved we are seeing synthetic and semi synthetic oils in multigrade choices with modern additives. These are designed to be used in modern machinery made with finer tolerances and different materials. Modern engines run faster and hotter than most older engines and are expected to run for longer between services so the oil is designed to lubricate better for longer. If it can do this in a modern engine then it certainly won't harm your old Petter chugging away at a rally.
With the multi-grades, use the highest number available as this will be the thickest. I would avoid the modern stuff like 5/30's as they are expensive and pointless. The lower figure is the viscosity of the oil at lower temperatures and, quite frankly, is irrelevant to a stationary engine that is not being started in sub zero temperatures. The higher the second number the thicker the oil in higher temperatures and that is what we want. A modern oil will lubricate a modern engine and, as already stated, it will certainly do the same for a vintage engine.
I would avoid using used engine oil as it has probably already collected it's fair share of contaminants and metal filings from the car/whatever that is has been in.
There is little evidence to show a marked deterioration in fresh oil that has been stored in it's original container for a few years so stored oil should also be fine. The MOD still have quantities of oil from the 1940's/ 1950's (you probably wont read that anywhere but trust me, I know) and if it's good enough for a Tank engine then I'm happy to use it as well.

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Re: Petter A1 sump oil ???? what grade / type please

Post by nutgone on Thu Jul 26 2012, 08:46

hob wrote:
nutgone wrote:
take it from someone who is a qualified engineer & very experienced in vintage & modern mechanics. Although I doubt anyone would use one, as it's too expensive.


i.m a qualified engineer too. and i still would not use even semi synthetic oil ...........and i'm old enough to be vintage Shocked

guess we will have to agree to disagree

Some engineer, couldn't even find the points on a Villiers lol!

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Re: Petter A1 sump oil ???? what grade / type please

Post by hob on Thu Jul 26 2012, 09:10

maybe i should point out the difference between an engineer and a mechanic ?

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Re: Petter A1 sump oil ???? what grade / type please

Post by nutgone on Thu Jul 26 2012, 09:28

No need Neville, I'm quite aware of the difference. I'm only having a bit of a laugh with you.

You've made a smashing job of your engines & made a very good start to the hobby with all your good work.

Keep it up & all the best. (I want a "Thumbs-Up" smiley thing, but we don't have one) cheers

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Re: Petter A1 sump oil ???? what grade / type please

Post by stationary stu on Thu Jul 26 2012, 10:28

Can I just add my little bit, yes I was always told bung any old oil in cheaper the better, well just recently I was told that with most of our engines not having an oil filter it's best to buy an oil that's made just for vintage engines. (Morris SAE30) I can't remember it all but it's to do with the dirt being held in suspension where as modern type oils don't do that as effectively. Sorry I can't find the email now with all the details but that's basically what it said. I hope you can grasp what I'm getting at.
I myself still use cheap mineral oil from a supermarket and until an engine seizes up due to using the cheap oil I'll continue to use it. Very Happy
I think it's up to the individual to decide for themselves, basically what we are all saying is any oil will do the job but it's up to them what they want to spend on oil.

Stu

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Re: Petter A1 sump oil ???? what grade / type please

Post by pauldg on Fri Jul 27 2012, 01:21

I think it's that the modern oils hold the particles in suspension better so they are carried to the filter and removed - old fashioned oils allow the contaminants to drop out of solution and collect in the bottom of the sump. That's my experience with it anyway. Also, too low a first number on a multigrade oil (0, 5 or even sometimes 10) and it'll find gaps to escape through you never knew were there.

One thing to really watch for is any EP additives - any brass present will not be happy with you if you use it...

I wouldn't worry about length of storage either, even if it's not sealed and not in it's original container - if it's been in an engine for a few years then it's a different matter due in part to the acids formed by fuel contamination and repeated heating and cooling cycles.

One last thing, I wouldn't recommend using veg oil (chip fat) as an engine lubricant except in an emergency and at low speeds - it's high temp viscosity is very low. And yes, I did test that theory Laughing

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