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lister d help please

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lister d help please

Post by Biggsy on Sat Aug 04 2012, 15:03

hi, any tips on removing the flywheel?

i have removed the pully wheel and can see a key in the shaft with a lip on it, im guessing this needs to be removed but could use some tips.

if i pull the flywheel horizontaly on its axis it moves about 4mm is this play normal? also i took engine cover plate off and there seems to be quite a bit of play at the bottom end of the piston con rod (think its the bigend?)would this be normal?

if anyone has any scrappers i need 2 valve caps as mine seem to be missing also a water drain tap, happy to pay

thanks

paul

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Re: lister d help please

Post by matt86 on Sat Aug 04 2012, 15:15

that play you have there is not normal .... and the big end is a bush rather than a 2 part bearing ...and the best way to get the GIB key out is a gib key drift ... but you will need to soak the key in some diesel / penetrating oil for a couple of weeks at least to give you a fighting chance ....

if you click on this forum topic it is on my lister A and go to the last page, there is a golden colored curved drift .... that is a gib key drift ...
You simply slide the thin end flat behind the keys head and top the other end ... making sure you hold the drift onto the crank firmly

http://www.stationaryengineforum.net/t3457p30-another-engine-ariving-soon

Mike d has some lister d spares worth giving him a Pm of Ian webb may have some spares lying about .

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Re: lister d help please

Post by nutgone on Sat Aug 04 2012, 23:09

Biggsy wrote:
if i pull the flywheel horizontaly on its axis it moves about 4mm is this play normal?

paul

Is this just the flywheel moving, or is the shaft moving with it???

If it's just the flywheel then it sounds like it's loose, if it's the shaft as well then it's just end float, but 4mm sounds quite excessive.

As for the big end, it may well move sideways along it's shaft, end float is quite normal, but it shouldn't have any "play" in the bearing, or at least not much (I'm sure these old engines can cope with a bit of play).

StationaryEngineParts.com will have some spares, I'm pretty sure they sell the brass taps you're after, others here will have plenty of D spared, I expect.

Hope this helps.

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Re: lister d help please

Post by Biggsy on Sun Aug 05 2012, 06:05

fly wheel is solid, 4mm is shaft play and on the big end it moves about 3mm forward and backward if you look at it with shaft left to right

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Re: lister d help please

Post by stationary stu on Sun Aug 05 2012, 10:55

I would say that movement would be ok. To remove the gib key out of the shaft so as to remove the flywheel will take a bit of work, sometimes you can move them with a chisel or I've provided a link to one sold on ebay (not cheap) if your handy you could make one. Like Matt has already said get some good penitrating oil not WD40 or even red diesel and spray it every day for a few weeks to give it a chance to soak in.
Ebay is a good source of spares for Lister D's also try an add in the forums, for sale/wanted topics as most of us have had or still have Lister D's there a popular engine and a lot new to the hobby start with them.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lister-A-D-stationary-engine-gib-key-puller-pet-5hp-CS-/120952230656?pt=UK_BOI_FarmingEquipment_RL&hash=item1c29509300

Stu.

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Re: lister d help please

Post by nutgone on Sun Aug 05 2012, 11:24

As far as penetrating oil goes I've had lots of success with something called "GT85" in the past. I reckon out of all the aerosol cans this stuff has to be the best.
It's cheapest at shows, but can be bought in many motor-factor type shops.

I've had it work near-miracles in the past, this stuff, but I've only ever bought aerosol cans of it, dunno if it's available in bigger cans or what it would be like.

Of course many people swear by many different things, from normal diesel (or red diesel) to paraffin to coke (yes, the drink. I've used it to get pistons un-seized in the past).
In the past I've used a mixture of a few of these things (think it was red diesel & coke), but most recently, if I'm not using GT85, I'm using 2 stroke mixture, a strong 25:1 mix, I find it better than just neat petrol for cleaning & un-sticking things, the petrol penetrates & the oil left behind lubricates (& I had plenty of it handy Very Happy )

Good luck (whatever you use).

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Re: lister d help please

Post by pauldg on Sun Aug 05 2012, 11:38

Biggsy wrote:fly wheel is solid, 4mm is shaft play and on the big end it moves about 3mm forward and backward if you look at it with shaft left to right

Do you mean the big end slides along the shaft or it 'clunks' across it? (i.e. radial or axial play)

(Hint, one of them should be ok, the other means if it does run it'll sound like a bag of spanners in a washing machine getting hit with a sledgehammer...)

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Re: lister d help please

Post by Biggsy on Wed Aug 08 2012, 17:48

it clunks across it quite a bit.....had a feel around in sump lookin for valve caps but only found black sludge and bits....yuk......looks like a total strip is on books, next target is gib key removal so i can get fly wheel off...looks like its gonna be a pain, looks like the user was over reving the engine buy tieing the spring up with twine, possible to increase the sheep shearing.....probably what killed the big end, ive had engine running before strip and it sounded ok...to me anyway, but as i have gone this far i might as well do the restoration properly and strip bottom end and check everything, will check with you guys on acceptable wear as i find it if thats ok?

really grateful for help

thanks

paul

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Re: lister d help please

Post by BRASSO on Thu Aug 09 2012, 10:29

stationary stu wrote:I would say that movement would be ok. To remove the gib key out of the shaft so as to remove the flywheel will take a bit of work, sometimes you can move them with a chisel or I've provided a link to one sold on ebay (not cheap) if your handy you could make one. Like Matt has already said get some good penitrating oil not WD40 or even red diesel and spray it every day for a few weeks to give it a chance to soak in.
Ebay is a good source of spares for Lister D's also try an add in the forums, for sale/wanted topics as most of us have had or still have Lister D's there a popular engine and a lot new to the hobby start with them.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lister-A-D-stationary-engine-gib-key-puller-pet-5hp-CS-/120952230656?pt=UK_BOI_FarmingEquipment_RL&hash=item1c29509300

Stu.

HI,

I have just started stocking a product at work called "ROST OFF ICE" - Made by Wurth.
I have tested this stuff and if you need to free anything its amazing. It casues the materiel to sharpley drop to -40 and casues shrinkage of the joint / thread. It then casues microfine cracks of the joint which break up rust etc. The creep effect ensures the active ingredient penetrates quickly.

I rate this a good 9/10. One of the best products I have used yet.

Cheers

Mart.

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Re: lister d help please

Post by stationary stu on Thu Aug 09 2012, 11:03

Biggsy wrote:it clunks across it quite a bit.....had a feel around in sump lookin for valve caps but only found black sludge and bits....yuk......looks like a total strip is on books, next target is gib key removal so i can get fly wheel off...looks like its gonna be a pain, looks like the user was over reving the engine buy tieing the spring up with twine, possible to increase the sheep shearing.....probably what killed the big end, ive had engine running before strip and it sounded ok...to me anyway, but as i have gone this far i might as well do the restoration properly and strip bottom end and check everything, will check with you guys on acceptable wear as i find it if thats ok?

really grateful for help

thanks

paul

Paul if your going to pull all the engine down you can remove the cranshaft with the flywheel still on but it's very heavy and difficult to work with.

Stu.

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Re: lister d help please

Post by stationary stu on Thu Aug 09 2012, 11:12

BRASSO wrote:HI,

I have just started stocking a product at work called "ROST OFF ICE" - Made by Wurth.
I have tested this stuff and if you need to free anything its amazing. It casues the materiel to sharpley drop to -40 and casues shrinkage of the joint / thread. It then casues microfine cracks of the joint which break up rust etc. The creep effect ensures the active ingredient penetrates quickly.

I rate this a good 9/10. One of the best products I have used yet.

Cheers

Mart.

That sounds like serios stuff Mart, Health and safety must love it Laughing Laughing Laughing does it come in an aerosol can? It does sound like good stuff to have to remove flywheels and when your restoring engines that's a barn find and never been touched since they were first built.

Stu.

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Re: lister d help please

Post by nutgone on Thu Aug 09 2012, 21:26

I tried something similar once, some time ago now, from Halfrauds. Never had much luck with it though Sad

It was probably a cheap copy though, & I expect I was using it wrong. I like the idea behind the stuff though. I'll have to keep an eye out for the real McCoy.

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Re: lister d help please

Post by Biggsy on Sun Aug 12 2012, 08:12

gib key still stuck in, stripped engine and drained sump, was full of thick black sludge, took piston out and its safe to say the big end bearing is shot......


one question.....the piston has a spike at the bottom....i'm guessing as the lister d uses a splash sump, its to splash oil...the question is...should it go through the oil like a knife or like a spoon...if you get my drift?

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Re: lister d help please

Post by stationary stu on Sun Aug 12 2012, 10:19

That bearing has defiantly has seen better days, is the shaft ok? can it be cleaned up? Yes the spike is the oil feed and it sounds as if the oil had been changed your bearing might not be like it is now. Are you going to replace the bearing or just get a secondhand rod and piston off ebay?

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Re: lister d help please

Post by Biggsy on Sun Aug 12 2012, 11:15

the shaft is smooth and undamaged, once dipper was unscrewed the bearing tapped out ok, have ordered a replacement from stationary engine parts, the small end feels ok and shaft bearings all seem ok, engine block is going to get a damn good scrub before visiting the blasters, the hopper also has about 2"-3" of muck dust and sheep hair in the bottom, which i'm guessing would not have helped with cooling,
when rebuilding i am using the full paper gasket set, do we use them dry or do people use anything else?
also as i rebuild wondering if it was an idea to use something like copperslip, to lube and protect bolts?

cheers
paul

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Re: lister d help please

Post by stationary stu on Mon Aug 13 2012, 10:37

Glad you managed to remove the bearing without any problems. As for the gaskets there's nothing wrong with a very fine smear of a good instant gasket. You can get either a paper type or copper head gasket for the Lister D but that doesn't need anything on the gasket faces. As for the use of copper slip I don't think it's necessary as once you've rebuilt the engine will you ever have a need to strip it again, I wouldn't think so and if your painting the engine that should protect the threads from rust. All I'll say is give everything a good coating of oil as you rebuild and check out all the oil/grease feeders make sure there all clear and working.

Stu.

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Re: lister d help please

Post by nutgone on Mon Aug 13 2012, 12:26

I always grease threads when I'm putting an engine back together, just in case it might need to come apart again. I just use normal grease, but copper slip would be better. I always use copper slip on the wheel bolts on my car, obviously just on the threads, not on the taper seat.

I know it's unlikely it'll need to come apart again, but if it ever does you'll be glad you did it. The engines I'm building are quite complicated, & often I get many bits together only to realise it should've gone in a different order, so it helps to have everything lubricated & will stop things rusting up in the future.
(Plus there's something quite satisfying about putting something back together, methodically, on a well organised bench, with the open tin of grease there, putting a smear on each screw or bolt as it all goes together Very Happy )

As for paper gaskets, it's usual practise to give them a smear of grease on re-assembly. I'm not a big fan of instant gasket materials, although they certainly have their uses & are very handy to have around. I always use the better brands though, such as Blue Hylomar & Stag Wellseal.

I think it's always nice to have the proper paper gaskets though, as they are original, but you can't always get them. I'm getting pretty good at cutting my own gaskets lately, from good quality gasket paper. I've had some very intricate ones to do as well, they all seem to work OK.

With instant gasket materials it's important to remember "less is more", if it's squeezing out on reassembly then you've used too much. The main reason I don't like them is that bits can break off & block oil ways, they can cause more trouble than they are worth, if not used properly, but like I said, they still have their place in the workshop & can get you out of trouble.

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Re: lister d help please

Post by stationary stu on Tue Aug 14 2012, 10:58

Nuts a tip I was told about using copper slip is when you apply it to say wheel nuts it washes of after a few months so it was a waste of time and money applying it, but if you mix copper slip with regular grease (not to much) it wil stay where you put it.

Stu.

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Re: lister d help please

Post by pauldg on Tue Aug 14 2012, 13:08

You're right about copperslip washing off - but it only washes off the exposed portion of the thread. Where the nut/bolt threads are together it stays in place, and in the cone section where the nut/bolt meets the wheel. Mixing it with something like LM or heavier certainly won't do any harm though and would help it stay on the exposed bits.

I always use it on wheel nuts and bolts for that reason, it stops the cones rusting together.

Another thing it does is lubricate on assembly, meaning you get a far more accurate and consistent torque on the fastener(s).

All in all, I think it's well worth using.

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Re: lister d help please

Post by Biggsy on Wed Aug 15 2012, 20:21

new big end bearing turned up today, disapointed though, my existing has a 5.5mm hole at the bottom to take butt of oil dipper, i guess this stops the bearing moving under load and engine temps, the new one has an 8mm hole and the two oil holes at top do not line up either Crying or Very sad
i know the bearing is tight and as engine gets hot the bronze will expand more than the steel but i want to get it right


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Re: lister d help please

Post by stationary stu on Thu Aug 16 2012, 10:43

Never had anything to do with changing one so sorry I can't help you. There maybe another member that's had the same issue and can help.

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Re: lister d help please

Post by Biggsy on Mon Aug 27 2012, 07:27

the bearing fitted perfectly on shaft and feels good, just hole issue, stationary engine parts were extreamly helpfull with my hole issue and as my engine was made 24-12-1943 its possible with mid war engines that some variables crept in, the bearing they supplied was spot on to listers drawings.

so....the fix....well i did the 'engineering' bit and re drilled the holes, i turned bearing 90 degrees and drilled a tighter dipper hole, removed piston from con rod....the timing cover bolt sleeve was perfect size for tapping out piston shaft Smile ,
marked up bearing and heated con rod up on gas stove, bearing dropped in about 1/2" before it expanded and stuck, i let it return to room temp and pressed bearing into place using vice and 2 bits of ply, once in i re drilled the 2 oil holes....




if you try this...look at old one first as bearing sits flush one side and sticks out other and does not go in the middle, when conrod goes back onto crankshaft, the sticky out bit of bearing goes on first,

i must stress i think my problems are with variables and not the new bearing, stationary engine parts were very helpful and i recommend them for spares

cheers

paul

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Re: lister d help please

Post by stationary stu on Mon Aug 27 2012, 11:09

Glad to hear you managed to get it all sorted, I thought the only way to solve your problem was to drill some more holes but when it's not your own engine you don't like to say it. Now you've refitted the bearing the holes should be all free and clean to allow the oil to get up to the small end bush.

Keep up the great work,

Stu.

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Re: lister d help please

Post by Biggsy on Sun Sep 02 2012, 07:24

i'm open minded and take pointers ok, with the piston removed from conrod i could easily drill the 2 oil holes with the bearing in place and they are nice and clear.

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Re: lister d help please

Post by stationary stu on Sun Sep 02 2012, 10:58

Sounds like you've got it all sorted, just make sure you get and bits of swarf out before you rebuild.

Stu.

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