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fumes in hopper ....

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fumes in hopper ....

Post by matt86 on Mon Aug 06 2012, 20:25

Today i managed to time the IHC up correctly and got it to run briefly without a carb as such unless you count me as a cart with a fairy liquid bottle squirting petrol in the inlet Laughing

worked in a fashion got to run for a 30 seconds ish and then i saw some exhaust fumes in the hopper ... Shocked the only thing i can pin point this is the head gasket was leaking .... I wiped the head off and the gasket ripped off and looks like someone had been there with some gasket gum as was extremely sticky ... Anyway i have cleaned up the cylinder face and there is one hole (waterway) at the top side that goes directly into the water hopper . So this is the only place i can see the fumes would escape from ...

a picture ....



Any other thoughts to what it could be or have i hit the nail on the head ????

Cheers , matt


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Re: fumes in hopper ....

Post by kevjhnsn on Mon Aug 06 2012, 21:56

matt
sounds a good chance that your right with that one with the carbon on the paint in the same area mate
and the gases blowing through the easyest exit out ie port from head to hopper ,
as with model engines oil and pressuring in the the water system sign of head gasket blowing
other than that it maybe a pin hole in the casting from cylinder to water hopper but chances of that are minimal.
also looks like the rings need replacing if this i engines own running oil looks abit excessive to me mate
may just need a deglaz/honing out allittle too matt ??
kev

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Re: fumes in hopper ....

Post by matt86 on Mon Aug 06 2012, 22:00

kevjhnsn wrote:matt
sounds a good chance that your right with that one with the carbon on the paint in the same area mate
and the gases blowing through the easyest exit out ie port from head to hopper ,
as with model engines oil and pressuring in the the water system sign of head gasket blowing
other than that it maybe a pin hole in the casting from cylinder to water hopper but chances of that are minimal.
kev

If you think kev there can not be no other explanation .... but when there was fumes in hopper was like a cloud of it in there so not just a small leak .... Remember how old is that gasket ... could be its gone soft / starting to detearate due to age and me starting it up gave it the final straw causing it to blow....

But if you notice the pitted area around the waterway ....

matt

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Re: fumes in hopper ....

Post by kevjhnsn on Mon Aug 06 2012, 22:14

yeah i did,
its been heading for this for a while by the looks of it matt
its not all that bad for the age mate
new gasket and a good clean up ,and i would use hallomar gold its very thin stuff and squezes out and only stops were needed
and it sets in the air tight gapped/pitted areas like a solid gasket but only upto 0.5mm so as on other post use liquid metal and then this betwen the gasket on bolth sides, thats the way i would do it if i was me with your engine mate
kev

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Re: fumes in hopper ....

Post by matt86 on Mon Aug 06 2012, 22:16

kevjhnsn wrote:yeah i did,
its been heading for this for a while by the looks of it matt
its not all that bad for the age mate
new gasket and a good clean up ,and i would use hallomar gold its very thin stuff and squezes out and only stops were needed
and it sets in the air tight gapped/pitted areas like a solid gasket but only upto 0.5mm so as on other post use liquid metal and then this betwen the gasket on bolth sides, thats the way i would do it if i was me with your engine mate
kev

im just a bit nervous to use liquid metal at 1st may get a high spot after etc

matt

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Re: fumes in hopper ....

Post by kevjhnsn on Mon Aug 06 2012, 22:27

if its as you say i would just use the hermatite gold and leave it a few days to settle and the fire it up and it should be good as poss the new gasket will bed into some of the dimples thinking about it when the gasket is compressed for the first time takes to the shape its forced up to
the gasket i use for heads is a 1.5mm graphite card /paper gasket and its never leaked on upto 20hp twin diesels and petrols for me
will find a link to it for the info on it
kev

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Re: fumes in hopper ....

Post by matt86 on Mon Aug 06 2012, 22:39

cheers kev , when i made mine for the wd2 i had some given to me from my dads mate .... but the wd had no pits in the face at all .... so it never leaked ..

matt

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Re: fumes in hopper ....

Post by kevjhnsn on Mon Aug 06 2012, 22:45

this in smaller size sheets
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Non-Asbestos-Graphite-Coated-Gasket-Material-Rolls-1-5mm-x-1500mm-x-1500mm-/120910382672?pt=UK_BOI_Metalworking_Milling_Welding_Metalworking_Supplies_ET&var=&hash=item1c26d20650#ht_500wt_1054
or the others on here recomend this one
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HEAD-GASKET-AND-MANIFOLD-MATERIAL-A4-SHEET-SIZE-/230714588161?pt=UK_BOI_FarmingEquipment_RL&hash=item35b7a93c01#ht_500wt_1054

i have a 6" od x4" i/d with four stud holes 1.5mm thick
if this is close let me know
kev


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Re: fumes in hopper ....

Post by stationary stu on Tue Aug 07 2012, 10:54

Matt you also have to take into account expansion when the engine gets hot, it could work either way, seal the gap or make it worse, you'll only find out once it's up and running. Try a new gasket and some instant gasket and I'm sure that should cure the problem. You need to bear in mind the worst that it could have a crack somewhere else but I'd worry about that later, there's always some additive you could add to stop it if it is a crack.

Stu.

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Re: fumes in hopper ....

Post by matt86 on Tue Aug 07 2012, 15:44

stationary stu wrote:Matt you also have to take into account expansion when the engine gets hot, it could work either way, seal the gap or make it worse, you'll only find out once it's up and running. Try a new gasket and some instant gasket and I'm sure that should cure the problem. You need to bear in mind the worst that it could have a crack somewhere else but I'd worry about that later, there's always some additive you could add to stop it if it is a crack.

Stu.

stu closely inspecting i can not see a crack .... as from the picture there is plenty of meet around the cylinder head face .... so i doubt it would crack unless frost damage ... but i could feet the gasses the top of the cylinder from the front if stuck my hand in the hole so points fingers at that waterway area .

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Re: fumes in hopper ....

Post by nutgone on Tue Aug 07 2012, 17:33

Please please please don't put ANY type of instant gasket or sealing compounds on a head gasket joint, it's a number one golden rule with any engine & is extremely bad practise.

Personally I think a careful clean up of both faces & a new, dry gasket, head tightened down properly, should do the trick.

If the metal needs building up then by all means use Quick Steel putty or liquid metal, build it up & re-face it, but it's quite a precise job, not impossible though.

P.S. Best head gasket material is solid copper sheet, as these can be annealed & re-used time & again, but it's expensive stuff these days, copper, & not the easiest gasket material to cut.

Any other engine gasket, with the possible exception of exhaust gaskets, usually goes on with a thin film of grease, but head joints should always go together dry.

The best instant gasket compounds are Blue Hylomar & something called "Stag Wellseal", red hermatite is best used as a paperweight. Still, none of these compounds are designed to go in between a head & barrel joint.

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Re: fumes in hopper ....

Post by matt86 on Tue Aug 07 2012, 19:35

nutgone wrote:Please please please don't put ANY type of instant gasket or sealing compounds on a head gasket joint, it's a number one golden rule with any engine & is extremely bad practise.

Personally I think a careful clean up of both faces & a new, dry gasket, head tightened down properly, should do the trick.

If the metal needs building up then by all means use Quick Steel putty or liquid metal, build it up & re-face it, but it's quite a precise job, not impossible though.

P.S. Best head gasket material is solid copper sheet, as these can be annealed & re-used time & again, but it's expensive stuff these days, copper, & not the easiest gasket material to cut.

Any other engine gasket, with the possible exception of exhaust gaskets, usually goes on with a thin film of grease, but head joints should always go together dry.



The best instant gasket compounds are Blue Hylomar & something called "Stag Wellseal", red hermatite is best used as a paperweight. Still, none of these compounds are designed to go in between a head & barrel joint.

Being a technician myself i would know about sealant on head gaskets .... i have never used selant on a head gasket except on a lister D the crankcase needed to be skimmed but i dont think it was worth the cost being a lister D ... personally these old engines that have a pitted face on block and keeps on leaking time after may need some sealant unless you go and get it faced off ... i just think that chemical metal sounds a bit drastic due to once its done its Permanent and a sealant is not . and i dont mean do chuck a hole tube of it on just a light smear on the crankcase and a smear of grease on the head . When come to remove it the gasket will still be intact Smile But of course instant gasket sealant is a last resort if you cant get the face and gasket to seal . Shocked

I know all these old copper gaskets can be annealed and used again but what if you want a material when tightened down to fill in dips etc .... im sure that copper will not do that ... Rolling Eyes

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Re: fumes in hopper ....

Post by nutgone on Tue Aug 07 2012, 20:21

Annealed copper is quite soft, I think you'd be surprised. But I suppose it depends how deep the pitting is (& how tight the head is torqued down)

Have a try with that stuff my brother used, it seems to be holding up well on his Stuart Turner. & it should be thick enough to take up any pitting. It was recommended to him by someone with an open crank engine.

Personally I wouldn't use anything on a head joint, not even grease. Just a gasket, if needed (some 2 stroke heads are lapped on with valve grinding paste, no gasket or anything).
I know people get away with it, I just like to follow good engineering practise.

Years ago I knew someone who had a car called a Yugo (they were built in the former Yugoslavia & based on out-dated Fiats), the previous owner had to keep replacing head gaskets on the car, or so he told me, but said he had cured the problem. When I took a look under the bonnet I couldn't believe my eyes, the head joint was covered with red Hermatite Shocked
The car kept on going though, & never blew the head gasket again.
Like I said, people get away with stuff like that all the time, I just wouldn't do it myself.

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Re: fumes in hopper ....

Post by pauldg on Tue Aug 07 2012, 20:35

If the surface is nastily pitted then lead it flat. It's really not that hard with a bit of practice....

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Re: fumes in hopper ....

Post by nutgone on Tue Aug 07 2012, 20:43

pauldg wrote:If the surface is nastily pitted then lead it flat. It's really not that hard with a bit of practice....

Good idea, I always keep some scrap lead sheet in the workshop, it also makes good soft jaws for the vice, they are a bit too soft, but won't damage threads etc.

Paul, could you also use solder? Or is that just too soft (plumbers solder obviously, the electrical stuff tends to have resin flux built in). I used to have an old stick of solder & a tin of Bakers Fluid, now that's going really old school.

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Re: fumes in hopper ....

Post by pauldg on Tue Aug 07 2012, 21:00

I'm not sure about solder, 'standard' (60/40 or the modern equivalent) solder melts at around 120-140 degrees C less than lead. Is 180-200 C a high enough melt point for an engine? I don't think I'd trust it myself. Whereas 327.5 C should be fine in most cases.

Silver solder or other high temp versions would probably be ok, but they aren't a cheap option.

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Re: fumes in hopper ....

Post by matt86 on Tue Aug 07 2012, 22:04

that sounds a interesting skill to learn but i have never tried it so would need to practice before i give it a go ... I flateening it back a bit with a flat file and already it is alot better .

I will get some material and make a gasket and see how it goes .... if it leaks again il have to do some filling .

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Re: fumes in hopper ....

Post by pauldg on Tue Aug 07 2012, 23:41

One thing most people don't realise is that the mating surfaces don't have to be perfect, especially when it's only pitting. If enough of the pits line up and create a channel it's bad of course, or if there are more pits than flat.

All you really need is enough good surface to make a seal around every orifice. The pic earlier in the thread looked like it certainly needed a bit of work, but shouldn't be too hard to make good.

The reason I like leading for this sort of thing is, unlike chemical metal type fixes, it's easy to re-do or even remove completely.

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Re: fumes in hopper ....

Post by nutgone on Wed Aug 08 2012, 10:13

Paul, tell us a little more about leading.

Is the metal cold worked? Or do you melt it with a blow lamp?

I actually don't mind working with lead, it's easy stuff to use, if a little heavy.

Next time you're in Wickes, or somewhere like that, take a look at the prices for a roll of lead flashing. affraid (mind you, you could see their prices on line. I couldn't believe the prices of copper pipe as well! I've got quite a bit of that in the shed, so I don't have to pay over inflated prices at shops like that when I need a bit).

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Re: fumes in hopper ....

Post by stationary stu on Wed Aug 08 2012, 10:53

Can I add a little here on the use of instant gasket with head gaskets. We all know it's a no no to use such stuff with the head gasket but were only doing it to an old engine that's not going to be working for it's living every day so no real harm done.
A little tale, when I served my time I worked for the local Leyland agents on blue line commercials (all the big stuff) Well Leyland re-developed there very good 400 range engine and some were naturally aspirated (401 range) whilst some were fitted with a turbo (410 range) well the turbo range were forever blowing head gaskets, now Leyland sold large numbers of these vehicles and it was a bit of a kick in the bollocks that they had such a problem with them, they made countless new head gaskets, new thermostats, water pumps, header tanks, new pipes the list goes on and cost Leyland a fortune and it's reputation to try and cure the problem. The answer was simple in the end and it never caused any more problems, all we did was line up the old head gasket on the block and drill 2 1/4inch holes into the water way below the surface. Well going back to the gaskets one they developed and we used and continued to use after the fault was rectified was a gasket that had a type of instant gasket bonded to it (like blue hylamar) so even someone that develops engines used a type of instant gasket, we also tried other types of instant gasket to stick the head down with out success so I don't think a bit of instant gasket on a 50+year old engine that's all pitted is going to make a lot of difference, also you should never use grease on a head gasket it should always be dry but if it works for you all well and good. If a manufacturer of an engine wanted anything used on a gasket they would say so in there manuals and I've never read anywhere to use grease or anything else on head gaskets.

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Re: fumes in hopper ....

Post by nutgone on Wed Aug 08 2012, 11:30

I think what happened to Neville's piston rings says it all about Red Hermaitie on cylinder heads. (I think it was his Petter A1 which had this trouble).

If a gasket has something like this already built into it then obviously the manufacturer intended it to be so.

I'm not a big fan of instant gasket compounds at all really, although I do use the better brands when I have to (like Blue Hylomar & Wellseal) but I always have to remind myself how a little goes a long way & too much can cause all sorts of problems, like blocking oil-ways etc.

It may also be worth mentioning something else I discovered recently (well, last year), it's an exhaust assembly paste (not a repair paste or putty) I can't remember the manufacturer but can easily find out. This stuff actually expands slightly when it gets hot, so will seal leaks in exhaust systems.
Now I'm definitely not saying anyone should put this on a cylinder head, but as we were on the subject of things that seal I thought I should mention it. It's really good stuff, I've even known of it being used on a home central heating system to cure a leaking radiator connection!

When I get home I'll dig it out & post up the name of it. Very useful stuff.

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Re: fumes in hopper ....

Post by pauldg on Wed Aug 08 2012, 11:53

I've used a few different types of those gaskets with the 'rubbery' rings on and wouldn't hesitate to use them again if that's what gets supplied. If you can use as little as it takes to make a very small ring around the chamber, far enough away from any hole that when it flattens as you tighten the head down it doesn't migrate into anything, then all's well and good - it'll come off easy enough next time you have to change it.

If you can see any instant gasket seeping out of the block/head interface when you tighten down, then you've used about 50 times more than needed... In fact, I'd say if you can tell it's been used when you take the head off again you've used too much.

I wouldn't personally add anything like that myself, but I have other (what I consider better) means at my disposal. And other methods that I shall detail in a new thread when I do it later on Wink

(With lead, it's worked in hot, not quite flowing though. Spatula it into place. You'll need some sort of flux. A lot of lead loading guides do actually specify solder, but they're aimed at bodywork filling so I've used plain lead the very few (2!) times I've done it on a block.)

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Re: fumes in hopper ....

Post by nutgone on Wed Aug 08 2012, 12:55

matt86 wrote:. I flateening it back a bit with a flat file and already it is alot better .



matt

This worries me a bit, if you're taking a file to a head joint it'll probably never be properly flat again, I've certainly never heard of filing a head joint before.

I know of one trick to keep a head joint flat whilst dressing it though;
you need a completely flat surface, usually a sheet of glass, & you "lap" the head with grinding paste against this surface, that way it should stay flat.

Of course an engineers block & some engineers blue should tell you for sure, but I don't know any home mechanics with these objects to hand. Usually a good steel rule across the diagonals should tell you it's flat.

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Re: fumes in hopper ....

Post by matt86 on Wed Aug 08 2012, 17:25

well i didnt go with the file like a mad man ... was verry little actually no more than 10 passes ....

regarding with the laping in paste on a sheet of glass etc ive done that before and still do it on work on a carb faces .... after you doing that with my engine matt .... I was going what i was told by a american engine collector who has done this many of times its just littery tickling the face up ... the pits are not as deep as i thought ...

imagine that having a whole engine lifted on its end let alone trying to move it ... the crankcase is basically the whole engine !


As said i will make a gasket and try it after this weekend .

matt

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Re: fumes in hopper ....

Post by Ianhw77k on Wed Aug 08 2012, 20:37

matt86 wrote:
imagine that having a whole engine lifted on its end let alone trying to move it ... the crankcase is basically the whole engine !


As said i will make a gasket and try it after this weekend .

matt
You can always invert the procedure and place a flat plate on the engine face and rub that around.

I know you probably don't need to do all this, I'm sure your head joint will be fine now but I just thought I'd say Embarassed .
Good luck with it, I'm sure you'll have it sorted in no time Smile

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Re: fumes in hopper ....

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