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easy starter

Post by geordie on Thu Aug 09 2012, 20:31

Hi folks, I have a multitude of problems, not all mechanical, my grandson, 13yrs, is starting to take an interest in all things old (machinery etc)
I have a lister D project I bought it as a runner but right now health issues prevent me from doing anything heavy,
So, problem 1, I want to maintain his intereset with an easy to start stationary engine, meaning that if he cant start it maybe my wife can, but as I am fairly new to stationary engines myself I dont know what to look for, (most of my spanner work was on old cars, ( 1930 to 1960).
I need to buy a runner for the time being, any ideas,
problem 2, I really dont know where to start looking so any clues will be gratefully accepted, i,e what magazines, what venues or shows in the Yorkshire Durham areas?
Last problem is, I have about 3 weeks in which to get an engine as after that i am in hospital and will not be allowed to drive for the following 12 weeks if all goes well ( wife cant drive so I would like something I can mess with without much effort, cleaning etc but no lifting)
Thanks for taking the time to read this,
Best regards to all. George,

geordie
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Re: easy starter

Post by stationary stu on Fri Aug 10 2012, 10:24

The only thing that springs to mind is something like an old lawn mower engine (Sufolk) or a small Jap 2a, BSA that's easy enough for someone to lift and start, problem being most stationary engines are heavy due to the use of cast iron being used in there making. You could maybe get away with a larger engine mounted on a trolley so you don't have to lift but nothing is that easy to start unless you get an engine that's been overhauled and starts first turn so this might be defeating what you want if your after showing your grandson how it works and to resore it. As for buying there's Ebay (link posted) or Stationary Engine magazine which is difficult to find at a newsagents so has to be bought on line. Where about's do you live then I can tell you what rallies are held local to you as you sound to be in my area of the country, also what date are you planning going into hospital so I can sort a list of rallies for you.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/Stationary-Engines-/58177/i.html

If you don't want to make some information public you can always send me a PM, just click on the link on the right.

Stu.

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Hi Stu

Post by geordie on Fri Aug 10 2012, 19:40

Hi Stu, thanks for taking time to reply and check Ebay for me, they are good suggestions from yourself.
Location is Selby north Yorks but I came from Blaydon origionaly and have a very good friend at Ebchester whom I visit twice a year at least so any in your area wood be good but depending on health at the time,
I am going into York Hospital on 30th Aug, for check on my status with a view of either keeping me in then or booking an Op within a few weeks of that date depending on findings.
Thanks for the info on the Mag, I had my scouts out today looking for a suitable one in the bigger Newsagents, I couldnt tell them what to look for but they came home empty handed and said the assistants had no knowledge of any,
the suggestion re a lawn mower engine is sound, I know of an old atco that is in running order, ( a neighbour has it ) so will try aproach from that route )
Thanks for your help sofar,I appreciate it
best regards, George

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Re: easy starter

Post by stationary stu on Sat Aug 11 2012, 10:45

Glad to help George, there's not a lot of rallies in the North east and the big ones have already been on (Pickering, Masham) I'll check Morgans and see if there's any in the next few weeks and let you know. Sometime on Ebay a seller will post a small engine only draw back it's then making it an expensive engine. Yout neighbours lawn mower engine is a good idea just a shame you'll have to buy the full mower, I have to add something here, it was an old mower that got me into Stationary engine and I still have it a 1966 Suffolf colt, not had it out in a few years as it's right at the back of the shed. Thinking about it it will be great just to mount the engine on a bit of ply and let your grandson mess about taking the plug out and cleaning etc then starting it up when he's finished, it will keep him more interested seeing it run after he's done something then doing a full overhaul where he may loss interest.

Stu.

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Engines are just like Pringles .... one is never enough.  Very Happy                                        I used to love tractors all I would ever think/talk about. Then one day out of the blue I went on to statinary engines, So you could say I'm an extractor fan.

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thanks again

Post by geordie on Sat Aug 11 2012, 19:51

Hi Stu. thanks for taking so much trouble for me, its a good idea to mount the motor, I will get myself prepaired for it, I have bits and pieces of 3/4 inch Ply and some old oak batterns laying around so no problem mounting it,
I have been on internet and ordered the mag from Kelsy Press, it is coming with a book on how to restore the lister D, so that was a timely idea of yours,
I dont live to far from Pickering and went to the show a few years ago, the trouble is you have to go for about three days to see all the displays but it was very enjoyable,
Last year me and wife went to a steam rally at Elveston Castle, I think that was the name, it was a real good show but there were only 3 stationary engines there.
At Pickering every year I think in November but dont hold me to that date, they have world war 2 weekend, all the locals dress in army costume and the moors steam railway has sandbags etc at the station, then at the other stations on the route to Whitby there are bands dressed in period costume playing
At that time they only allow vehicles pre 1946 into the town. however I digress,
Any idea what would be a realistic price to pay at auction for a Lister Diesel engine, I dont really want one but there was one for sale at Selby cattle market today, I didnt see it sell as I needed to get home , I assume it would not be a runner but I could be wrong, this is a farming area and I am told that stationary engines come up now and then, as I have never bought a none runner I was just wondering what anyone would pay for it, the Ebay listings within easy traveling distance to me (50 Miles) seem to be expensive but there again I still remember spending farthings as a kid so maybe they are cheap.
Thats enough rambling from me, I do appreciateyour input,
best regards, George

geordie
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Re: easy starter

Post by stationary stu on Sun Aug 12 2012, 11:13

Hi George, I've been thinking about where you might get an engine and remembered York action, I think it's on every month on a Wednesday and they do sell a few engines, there normally just small stuff, Villiers, Brigg and Stratton etc so you might have some luck there I've included the link to there web site.
As for the Lister diesel if it's a runner it could make good money but a non runner can be expensive to repair if it needs a pump or injector.
A good show to try if your not in hospital by then is Hunton steam gathering (link posted below) good show and not to big, there is also one near Northallerton but can't find the date, it's normally a week or 2 after Hunton, I have the engine stewards phone number somewhere so if you want more details I could phone him for you. The only other rally I can think of is the beginning of Oct at Croft nr Darlington.
As for prices this all depends on condition and if there intact you should be able to pick up something up to about £30 all intact it may or may not be a runner if you can find out if it has a spark then that's normally the big problem with small engines especially Villiers. You can get the bits to fix but they are expensive for say a new coil. Have a look on you tube and you should be able to find a short video clip of most of the small engines running and this could give you some idea of what might be best.
To digress what your saying about the NY railway they do a similar type weekend on the Wear valley railway up at Stanhope and Wolsingham, one village has the British and Americans there while the other village has the Germans, there's a 40's dance on the Saturday night and most people are dressed in 40's clothing it is a good weekend.

Hope this helps,

http://www.ylc.co.uk/

http://www.stationaryengineforum.net/t5354-hunton-steam-gathering-sept-8th-and-9th-2012-north-yorks

Stu.

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Engines are just like Pringles .... one is never enough.  Very Happy                                        I used to love tractors all I would ever think/talk about. Then one day out of the blue I went on to statinary engines, So you could say I'm an extractor fan.

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Re: easy starter

Post by pauldg on Sun Aug 12 2012, 11:36

£30 seems a lot of money for a little engine... Not so long ago I got a running (not perfectly so, but hey) suffolk mower for £2 and an allen scythe where the engine isn't bad for £1.7something. That's just a little sample of my ebay antics...

At a local auction I also got a pair of running (after a plug clean) suffolks for a total of under £3 - the auctioneer tried starting at a tenner each, I said a pound each, someone else said £2 for the pair, and then I beat them... If nobody else sticks their hand up shout a quid! I've been given a good few as well.

These old mowers can be had for spare change, or you can pay a lot for one. Whereas take off the engine and mount it on something and you'll always pay more.

In fact, you could end up in profit if you choose right - get a late-ish alloy chassis suffolk for a couple of quid (best if you can find one with a damaged blade or something to save killing yet another one), take off the engine and strip and weigh in the rest.

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thanks again Stu

Post by geordie on Sun Aug 12 2012, 17:29

Thanks again Stu, I have looked at the link for Hunton, it looks very interesting and if I can, I shall go.
re the York auctions,, as it happens, Saturday gone I went to their autojumble after an early look at Selby auction,
I have to say that the autojumble was a tad dissapointing but that is because it was small, having said that if you wanted small items for old brit bikes there was a fair selection,
There was a really nice BSA A7 there, apple green , I used to go to Newcastle haymarket in the early 1950's and look in the motorbike shop windows, whenever I saw that bike I used to drool, I still do but not for BSA anymore!
I only came away with 3 x bags of split pins but felt happy to have bought something.
York Auction has a car boot sale on every Sunday and there is usually a lot of old iron mongery stuff, witworh spanners etc.
after looking at your link to their site I have opened an account and will recieve an email from them for each sale they hold, so thanks again.
Lastly, thanks for the offer to contact the Northallerton Stewart, I will take a raincheck on that one (as the Americans say) until I am fit and bouncing again.
It just came to my mind re Villiers Engines, I still have the flywheel spanner from my first bike, a James Captain, do Villiers still have the flywheel nut that has double threads and need a Hammer on the spanner to undo them?
once again, thank you. George

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reply to Paul

Post by geordie on Sun Aug 12 2012, 17:48

Hi Paul, thanks for taking interest in my little problem and taking the time and effort to write.
you gave sound advice re the small motors. there is a Monday market in Selby though it appears to be dying.
a lot of stuff goes to the local recycling site, somehow a lot of that stuff finds its way to the to the market, everything is for about £2, I shall make the effort to stay and watch tomorrow, I have seen lots of lawnmowers not getting a bid even though described as working but in need of attention.
I have thought that maybe I should (amongst other things ) collect a Briggs and Stratton Engine. I know they are throw away motors at present but so were Villiers at one time, with the advent of china taking over the world trade, I dont think that these little motors will be made in America soon, or maybe I am to late already.
I dont want to collect small engines though I do like to see them in their former glory with a passionate owner,
If things go well for me and I have no reason to doubt that they will, then my aim is to start with a Lister and then work up to larger things from there.
If I was young again but knew what I know now ( sounds like a song) I would buy a lister truck ( used to drive one in a factory) a Bedford half cab Coach ( traveled to school sometimes, 1/2pence fair ) A Ferguson tractor ( never been near one but use to watch an old farmer drive it to market ) and a 1977 BMW R 80 motorbike with sidecar, ( I just sold mine due to health but used to take Sam my yellow labrador camping in it ) we were the origional Wallace and Grommet
Thanks again Paul.
Much appreciated, George

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Re: easy starter

Post by pauldg on Sun Aug 12 2012, 23:23

I only didn't suggest a little Briggs because I thought it would get frowned at... I know what you mean about them being pretty much a throwaway engine but I personally consider that a bit of a shame.

They're actually not bad 'starter' engines, especially for someone quite young. They're very cheap to get, loads around and if you get one with the 'electronic' ignition dead easy to start. All the internals are the same basic principal as more 'desirable' engines too so they're ideal to practice on - even if something gets broken it's only a few quid to fix or replace. Set them up right and they'll idle really slow too, even with a bit of a load - makes them seem less obnoxious somehow.

I've got a few strapped to various bits of equipment and when I get time they'll all get rebuilt/restored. They've given me good service so I'm going to repay them Laughing

Edit... Nothing wrong with collecting small engines - nothing wrong with not collecting them either. At the moment I'm more a 'small engine person' as anything bigger is out of budget for a start. I'd like something bigger, but I'm certainly not going to get rid of all the smaller ones to get one.

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Re: easy starter

Post by stationary stu on Mon Aug 13 2012, 10:26

George if you end up with a dozen small engines there's no harm they can give you a few hours work but if you manage to get them running a bit of satisfaction and as they are always worth money either to sell on or take to the scrapman you can't loose and they are always a way to get a few extra £££'s in the pot for something bigger in the future. Due to ill health all I buy now is cheap small engines as it's all I can lift so in a few years time I'll be able to sit at the bench in my shed and repair them without causing any more damage to myself.
As Paul says £30 is high but that was a maximum figure you should be paying anything less is a bonus, I picked up 5 small engines a few years back for £32 and 3 were runners, so bargins can be had thing is they tend to turn up at the wrong time or are just a bit to far to collect as with the price of fuel these days it can cost more to collect them then what the engine is worth.
A good source is the local re-cycling centre (tip) some do sell on some don't but you can pick up old lawn mowers there for a few quid. I also buy a lot of handles from them when I make a trolley and they work out great for the job and for a pound or 2 you can make them any cheaper.

Stu.

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bought engines

Post by geordie on Mon Aug 13 2012, 20:57

Hi Stu and Paul, just to let you know I went to Selby market today and bought a briggs and stratton motor, dont know if it is a runner or not at this time but only cost £2
I have also just bought 2 engines, both working but frpom an outside source, first one is a Tarpen generator on wheels 2 stroke 110 volts, the second is a JAP engine coupled to a lister waterpump,
I shall have a go at burnishing the pipework but apart from that there is nothing to do to them, I shall keep these until the health issue is resolved but it was like Christmas day today and the wife said she would pay for one of them as a late retirement present, I dont really think she had demetia yet but she has been getting me retirement presents of one sort or another for the last 5 years (mainly garden tools, I think there was a hint there)
So if any of you knowledgeable people can tell me, is it ok to use synthetic 2 stroke oil in the petrol mix for the Tarpen ( I know that the Jap is a 4 stroke) what oil is recommended for the four strokes? I used straight oil in the old Morris because detergent would have caused damage to an engine with no filter
Last question to anyone, is there a local to North Yorks area stationary club? or what do other owners do apart from look on here for info.
Finaly, thank you both, Stu and Paul for the time and consideration you have given me, if there is anything I could do in return please ask but be aware, I used to be a biker, and as such I dont lend my bike or woman to anyone (joke as both are far to old)
Best regards George

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Re: easy starter

Post by pauldg on Mon Aug 13 2012, 21:43

There you go, that's a proper price for a B&S! I don't know if you know how to date them or not? If not, post the number off the cowl...

I'd use modern 2t oil myself - or 30w - or chainsaw bar oil - probably not veg oil... Whatever I can pick up cheap. Never did my bsa d7 any harm Wink As for the 4 stroke, I use whatever is cheapest at the time, reasoning they don't fill it up with detergents (as much) if you're not paying for them. A detergent oil won't damage the engine itself, but it's better at holding contaminants in suspension rather than letting them drop out and collect in bottom of the sump - keep it changed regularly and it shouldn't be an issue.

No problem with giving out my opinion - it's always free. It has no guarantee though (maybe I should put a disclaimer on my signature...) Oh, and I wouldn't ask to borrow a bike - I'd never give mine out either!

Good luck with them all,
Paul

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Re: easy starter

Post by Ianhw77k on Tue Aug 14 2012, 08:56

Personally I think you are better off with the cheaper mineral based two stroke oils in old machinery, mixed at about 25:1 NOT 16:1 like the old oils they used.
My brother and I have run a Tarpen for years on cheap 2 stroke oil mixed 25:1 with no problems. Lately I gave him some synthetic stuff that I use for my garden machinery but the old Tarpen didn't seem to run as well on it and there was some getting blown through the main bearings.

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Re: easy starter

Post by stationary stu on Tue Aug 14 2012, 10:47

Great to hear you've found something in fact a few engines, should keep you and your grandson busy/happy for a while.
George the discussion on which oil comes up about every week or so, the majority of us us cheap supermarket oil and no one has had any problems using it. Our engines only run for a short time and are never pushed to there limit as far as a load goes but if you want to there are a few companies about that do a good SAE30 oil suitable for these engines but that's up to you.
Like I said earlier at £2 for the B&S it's not going to break the bank if it turns out to be scrap and you should get a few quid of the scrap man if it is of no use.
All we need now is for you to post us some pictures (we like pics on this forum lol) to see what you've got.
As for giving us anything in return I'd have to say what you offered I couldn't use as I'd fall off both lol! lol!
As for the club is it just to check out rallies of somewhere to go meet others? The only club I know is in Leeming Bar and I think it's more a tractor club. If your just after somewhere to find rally dates a good book to get every year is Morgans, it's published by York rotary club and all profits go to charity but it does show nearly all events from the Scottish borders down to about Lincolnshire and sometimes a bit further. If you check out the forums rally dates thread there's some links there for sites like Old Glory which do a good rally round up.
Any questions just start a new thread and I'm sure someone will try there best to help you.

http://www.morgansyearbook.co.uk/

Stu.

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thanks everyone

Post by geordie on Wed Aug 15 2012, 15:27

Hi to you all.
I cant express the gratitude I feel for the time and effort taken to assist me.
I shall take some photos as soon as the rain stops. I have to walk down the garden and am not as drip dry as I used to be in my younger days.
Re the oil, I asked about the synthetic as I have about 2 gallons of the stuff from when my son had a moped (the oil lasted longer than the bike)
so much to say but no words come so I will just say many thanks again and will monitor and post when I get the chance,
Best Regards to all.
George

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Re: easy starter

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