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Lister D Dual Fuel

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Lister D Dual Fuel

Post by sjtj8 on Sat Nov 03 2012, 21:23

Hi all, can anyone help with, how can i set up my lister d to run on petrol and then paraffin, at the moment it only runs on petrol, any help will be great.
Thanks Steve

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Re: Lister D Dual Fuel

Post by matt86 on Sat Nov 03 2012, 21:36

sjtj8 wrote:Hi all, can anyone help with, how can i set up my lister d to run on petrol and then paraffin, at the moment it only runs on petrol, any help will be great.
Thanks Steve

right do you want to do it the cheap way or the proper way ???

Cheap way .... you will need 1 x vaporizer 1 x 3 way tap and make up fuel lines to suit , 1 x small petrol tank as tank you have now will be use for paraffin . then you fit 2 head gaskets and raising the compression ratio verry slightly

Or the propper way is to buy all bit i have said but one head gasket and get a flat top piston and fit that .... they can be bought from here .....http://www.stationaryengineparts.com/Piston-rings-and-valve-gear/ the piston for the DK you want .

I have a vaporizer that is going spare too Wink

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Re: Lister D Dual Fuel

Post by sjtj8 on Sat Nov 03 2012, 21:54

Thanks Matt, do you have to thicken up the head gasket?

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Re: Lister D Dual Fuel

Post by matt86 on Sat Nov 03 2012, 21:58

sjtj8 wrote:Thanks Matt, do you have to thicken up the head gasket?

if you keep your piston just use 2 gaskets if not one will be fine .

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Re: Lister D Dual Fuel

Post by sjtj8 on Sat Nov 03 2012, 22:33

What would happen if i didn't use 2 gaskets just 1

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Re: Lister D Dual Fuel

Post by matt86 on Sat Nov 03 2012, 22:59

sjtj8 wrote:What would happen if i didn't use 2 gaskets just 1

im not quite sure .... exactlly as i have never tried it but this is what i have been told what needs to be done to convert it .

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Re: Lister D Dual Fuel

Post by nutgone on Sat Nov 03 2012, 23:18

sjtj8 wrote:What would happen if i didn't use 2 gaskets just 1

That's a good question. I would assume nothing. Most engines which were adapted for petrol paraffin (or petrol TVO) just ran the inlet through a heat exchanger from the exhaust (the vaporiser) some didn't even do that, as they would run once hot enough anyway.

Some had different carbs with bigger jets, but I wouldn't have thought the lower compression ratio would've made that much difference, so long as the engine is hot enough to burn the fuel. Maybe that's it, the Lister D might not have run quite hot enough, so needed the extra room in the combustion chamber.

I suspect you would only run into trouble in the colder weather, but I'm only guessing. I would suggest following the guidelines given, & would love to see some pictures of your project if you decide to follow it up.

I'm planning on making a wood or coal gas generator for one of my engines in the future, that'll be a good one to follow, if I ever get started on it.

Just a quick after thought, would it not be advantageous to alter the timing for the higher viscosity fuel. As it burns slower I would've thought some advance would be in order??? Just a thought. (can you tell I'm interested? Embarassed )

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Re: Lister D Dual Fuel

Post by matt86 on Sat Nov 03 2012, 23:29

nutgone wrote:
sjtj8 wrote:What would happen if i didn't use 2 gaskets just 1

That's a good question. I would assume nothing. Most engines which were adapted for petrol paraffin (or petrol TVO) just ran the inlet through a heat exchanger from the exhaust (the vaporiser) some didn't even do that, as they would run once hot enough anyway.

Some had different carbs with bigger jets, but I wouldn't have thought the lower compression ratio would've made that much difference, so long as the engine is hot enough to burn the fuel. Maybe that's it, the Lister D might not have run quite hot enough, so needed the extra room in the combustion chamber.

I suspect you would only run into trouble in the colder weather, but I'm only guessing. I would suggest following the guidelines given, & would love to see some pictures of your project if you decide to follow it up.

I'm planning on making a wood or coal gas generator for one of my engines in the future, that'll be a good one to follow, if I ever get started on it.

Just a quick after thought, would it not be advantageous to alter the timing for the higher viscosity fuel. As it burns slower I would've thought some advance would be in order??? Just a thought. (can you tell I'm interested? Embarassed )

all valid pints there matt .

For the price of 2 head gaskets i would do it and not really a bank breaker ...

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Re: Lister D Dual Fuel

Post by sjtj8 on Sun Nov 04 2012, 00:03

Thanks for the advice Matt, i've made a HHO generator and im going to see if it will run the lister d after starting on fuel.

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Re: Lister D Dual Fuel

Post by nutgone on Sun Nov 04 2012, 08:43

sjtj8 wrote:Thanks for the advice Matt, i've made a HHO generator and im going to see if it will run the lister d after starting on fuel.

Now HHO definitely needs quite drastic changes in timing, otherwise it can be quite dangerous (well actually, very dangerous). Some even say the firing point needs to be the other side of TDC, it burns that much faster than any other fuel.

You'll also probably find you need a water injector. It's not that difficult to make one.

Have you read Patrick Kelly's alternative power website??? It's all laid out in ebooks which are in PDF format so can be downloaded for later. There's a lot on HHO on there, I forget which chapter but it won't be difficult to find. Here's a link to the main page....

http://www.free-energy-info.com/

I for one would be very interested to hear all about it. But be warned, the reception you may receive on a certain other stationary engine forum is less than favourable. I happened to mention "Free Energy" over there & was very quickly shot down in flames & very rudely set upon. You shouldn't get that kind of behaviour here though, even if people don't understand or don't agree with you, they're still very friendly here.

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Re: Lister D Dual Fuel

Post by matt86 on Sun Nov 04 2012, 12:38

i know one thing .... you cant not run a d type without a heat exchanger / vaporizer as they dont normally run too hot anyway . I know a chap and he had to make a heat shield that clips around the vaporizer and carb area to keep the heat around the area .

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Re: Lister D Dual Fuel

Post by mike d on Sun Nov 04 2012, 12:56

i was told by an older gentleman many years ago,that if you don't use two head gaskets,it will kill the piston...
back in the days of Lister's at dursley,if you wanted your engine converted to p/p they would take it back and put 2 head gaskets on it...
so its up to you,as its your engine....this is the sort of info you collect over the years....
im a strong believer in listening to the older generation as they forgotten more than we will ever know...
its a pity my late fathers friend Ron didn't put down on paper all he new..trouble is he passed away and all the info he had in his head went with him..many many years of knowledge lost for ever.....
this was how good Ron was..if i had an engine that i had problems with,all i had to do was to phone him..he would ask what was the engine doing..then he would give me his diagnosis of what he though or sounded like was wrong..
i would go back to the engine and do as i was told to do..and bugger me away went the engine....
i could have had 2 or 3 people look at it and no go....he was 10 miles from me on the phone and 10 time out of 10 he was right....god that man new his engines..and he had a bloody collection back in the days.....RIP RON..... Sad Sad
that why you see me always talking to the older generation..they have never steered me wrong....

regards...mike....

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Re: Lister D Dual Fuel

Post by Foden on Sun Nov 04 2012, 16:53

Lister advised that the CONVERTED engines, ie two head gasket's, should not be run on paraffin or lamp oil as the compression ratio is still too high, they can however be run using 50 octane TVO. Personally I just use straight petrol in my converted DK, a club mate runs one on TVO and every year he has to remove the head and piston to scrape the carbon out of it. I did talk with David Harris (Lister Helpline) on this subject when I rebuilt my engine and he said that after the Suez crisis was over and petrol was readily available again the factory converted very few engines, and when they came in for repair usually put them back to straight petrol again. Paraffin is as expensive as petrol around here, and not readily available either.

Pete.

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Re: Lister D Dual Fuel

Post by nutgone on Sun Nov 04 2012, 17:42

Glad to hear all this. I had a feeling they ran a bit cool, so probably needed a vaporiser. I never realised heavier fuels needed lower compression ratios.

However, this guy is talking about using HHO gas, which is a mixture of oxygen & hydrogen gained from splitting water with electrolysis, it's something I've spent a lot of time researching in the past, it's one of the many so called "Free Energy" devices. I chose to go down a different route with my experimentation though & built a Tesla type device instead (I wish I'd made a HHO generator now).

As I said it's a contentious issue, basically we're using a very small amount of electricity to split the water & make a LOT more power back by running an engine with it. Now I know some will say it's not possible to get more out of something than you put in, & this is where the arguments tend to start, but it is possible & more than that it has been done by quite a few people. However, to run a car off it is another issue, as it's a gas you can't store (it spontaneously explodes if compressed over about 15psi) so you need to make it as you need it, which isn't difficult for a stationary engine.

Anyway, that's a whole other issue & a totally different thread. But I would still like to say thanks to you guys for teaching me a few new things about Lister D's. Especially as I've just won one on eBay!

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Re: Lister D Dual Fuel

Post by stationary stu on Mon Nov 05 2012, 12:19

I'm not into alternative fuels but I can remember seeing pics of buses using bags on the roof so they could run on gas and it's still be experimented with today so there maybe some future in it.

http://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2011/11/gas-bag-vehicles.html

http://aolsearch.aol.co.uk/aol/imageDetails?s_it=imageDetails&q=buses+running+on+hydrogen&img=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.guim.co.uk%2Fsys-images%2FEnvironment%2FPix%2Fcolumnists%2F2010%2F12%2F9%2F1291916766602%2FLondon-Hydrogen-Bus--006.jpg&v_t=sb_uk&host=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.guardian.co.uk%2Fenvironment%2F2010%2Fdec%2F10%2Fhydrogen-bus-london&width=183&height=109&thumbUrl=http%3A%2F%2Ft2.gstatic.com%2Fimages%3Fq%3Dtbn%3AANd9GcQtMGUe9oTou1o7knHpCH40GA5PHjBeBmjwAn0l7viVYcK6l84oUFicvjkg%3Astatic.guim.co.uk%2Fsys-images%2FEnvironment%2FPix%2Fcolumnists%2F2010%2F12%2F9%2F1291916766602%2FLondon-Hydrogen-Bus--006.jpg&b=image%3Fs_it%3DimageResultsBack%26v_t%3Dsb_uk%26q%3Dbuses%2Brunning%2Bon%2Bhydrogen%2B%26oreq%3D11cef9e1d439450eab7cda65a20f262c&imgHeight=276&imgWidth=460&imgTitle=London+Hydrogen+Bus&imgSize=37509&hostName=www.guardian.co.uk

Stu.

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Re: Lister D Dual Fuel

Post by matt86 on Mon Nov 05 2012, 18:10

also on wartime farm series that was on bb2 the converted a old ambulance to run of gas but was made from the waste of burning coal wood etc and it worked quite easy .

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Re: Lister D Dual Fuel

Post by nutgone on Mon Nov 05 2012, 19:04

matt86 wrote:also on wartime farm series that was on bb2 the converted a old ambulance to run of gas but was made from the waste of burning coal wood etc and it worked quite easy .

matt

That was a bloody good series, I really enjoyed every episode of that.

It was a coal gas generator they made, but the idea is very similar for wood gas generation. Water gas is a little different, but similar nonetheless. You burn charcoal with little or no oxygen (similar to coal or wood gas) but you introduce steam/water vapour (not under pressure or anything) & it makes something called water gas, which should burn better than coal gas.

It's all very old technology, I've been meaning to have a go at something myself for some time now. But this HHO gas is a bit more recent, & very different. But just as ingenious. Here's a link (I posted it above) to a website dedicated to "Free Energy" devices & technologies. If you look at chapter 10 you will find stuff about using & producing HHO gas to run, or boost running of, internal combustion engines. There is also a very good introduction section, which gives a vague idea what it's all about. It's not for everyone though, there's a lot of conspiracy theorists attracted to this kind of stuff, & there has been many "Charlatans" in the past, who make all sorts of claims for their devices, in order to attract investment, only to never come to anything. Also the way the world is at the moment, we are pre programmed to deny these things even work, hence all the arguments & rudeness I got on the other forum, it goes against stuff we've been taught all our lives, I personally don't find it hard to believe stuff like that, but some do. Not an easy thing to discuss at all, really. But interesting to those with slightly more open minds. Anyway, here's that link....

http://www.free-energy-info.com/

It's quite in depth stuff, & can get a little technical. There are also many different facets to it all, it can go on & on & on, perhaps not the best thing to discuss here.
But the wood gas, coal gas & water gas stuff could well be worth some forum space, especially as it represents part of the history we are directly interested in. I might not be too far off beginning something along these lines, I have an old gas bottle which came from France, so is useless over here. I've been meaning to put it to good use.... scratch study study

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Re: Lister D Dual Fuel

Post by stationary stu on Tue Nov 06 2012, 11:59

Nuts it's your life mate but I think trying to make gas in your back garden shed might not be the best idea you've had Laughing Laughing Laughing I know for H&S you should label any buildings that contain gas cylinders but try telling a fireman there's a fuel making set up in your shed then take a pic of his face as it should be a winner.

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Re: Lister D Dual Fuel

Post by nutgone on Tue Nov 06 2012, 13:41

stationary stu wrote:Nuts it's your life mate but I think trying to make gas in your back garden shed might not be the best idea you've had Laughing Laughing Laughing I know for H&S you should label any buildings that contain gas cylinders but try telling a fireman there's a fuel making set up in your shed then take a pic of his face as it should be a winner.

Stu.

Good point Stu, I'm more interested in making the apparatus than the gas itself. TBH I hadn't even thought about the safety considerations in any great detail yet, it's just a thought at the moment. Thinking about what you've said though, I think it's something I wouldn't be actually using at home, probably more of a static exhibit than a working example.

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Re: Lister D Dual Fuel

Post by stationary stu on Tue Nov 06 2012, 17:02

That sounds a better idea. Very Happy Very Happy

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Re: Lister D Dual Fuel

Post by matt86 on Tue Nov 06 2012, 18:11

If we see a mushroom cloud in the news saying

"Enthusiast blown up in own experiment gone wrong"


We all know who it is going to be Laughing Laughing Laughing

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Re: Lister D Dual Fuel

Post by nutgone on Tue Nov 06 2012, 19:14

lol! lol! lol!

At least I would die happy.

Not so happy if I was just maimed though. Wink

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Re: Lister D Dual Fuel

Post by mike d on Tue Nov 06 2012, 20:06

well it sure ain't going to be me...lol

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Re: Lister D Dual Fuel

Post by jay on Sun Nov 18 2012, 14:38

A D type wll run happily off load or very light load no problem on parrafin with only 1 head gasket,you wont burn the piston either unless you run a high load like a genny and the engine is boiling in the hopper,more than likely burn a valve before buring a piston which is again very unlikely as the D type compression isnt very high and the burn inside the combustion chamber isnt as hot as modern day engines..
I ran a D type for many years at rallys and it would pre ignite if i ran it will aa heavy load but running on its own or just a water pump it would happliy run all day on parrafin and that engine has a normal head gasket and raised top piston..
But if you run A D type on parrafin with the proper piston or 2 head gaskets make sure you are using a hotter spark plug as they will foul up if run off load for to long,and a shield is helpful to keep the vaporison up to temp on a rally field,diffrent if using the engine in a engine house as the wind wont blow on it..

parrafin is the same price as petrol if buying your parrafin in small cans of 4 litres from say B&Q or simlar but find somewhere that sells it by the pump and its usually about 90p to £1 a litre (havent found a place cheap in the midlands either cheapest round here is £1.24 a litre sold in 4 litre cans from local hardware store.

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Re: Lister D Dual Fuel

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