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Ian's Stuart Turner P5XC

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Ian's Stuart Turner P5XC

Post by nutgone on Sat Nov 24 2012, 23:38

That's right, I got so bored & run out of things to do that I decided to take his Stuart Turner to bits.

Well, he did say I could "tinker" with it, not sure this was what he was expecting....



It's a bit late now, to be clicking away on a keyboard, so I will do a full write up of what I've done so far in the morning. Very Happy

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Re: Ian's Stuart Turner P5XC

Post by Ianhw77k on Sun Nov 25 2012, 12:04

When I bought this engine it was in bits, not a load of rusty bits but it was described as a runner that had been stripped for painting.
We hastily slapped it back together to see if it ran and found the magneto to be defective (and also not the right mag Rolling Eyes ) so after some looking around I found a second hand Lucas N1 for it and we eventually got it started.
It doesn't run or start very well which I am still trying to get to the bottom of so in the meantime I've told Nutgone he can do as he likes with it as it could probably do with coming apart and being put back together properly. Also the paintwork was looking a bit tired and although I planned to leave it a bit tatty I've now changed my mind and think a new colour scheme and a bright fresh look is the way to go.

A decent exhaust system and something to give the engine a bit of load is what is needed I think so feel free to chirp in with any ideas Smile
That's a bit of history for anyone who doesn't know, I'll leave it to Nutgone now.

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Re: Ian's Stuart Turner P5XC

Post by stationary stu on Sun Nov 25 2012, 12:38

I'll be interested in this thread as it will give me some tips when I get round to restoring my P5 so Nuts a full write up with pics and everything overhauled right down to the last nut and bolt Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

I'm watching you Suspect

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Re: Ian's Stuart Turner P5XC

Post by nutgone on Sun Nov 25 2012, 14:09

Right, first of all, I'm keeping the photos in yet another Photobucket album, especially for the job, you can find it here....

http://photobucket.com/nutgonesstuartpics

Also, Ian has given me almost a free hand with this one, but he doesn't want me to disturb the bottom end (oh, stop sniggering!), by which I mean he doesn't want me to split the crank cases. Last time we did anything with this one the clutch nut (main nut on the output shaft) kept coming loose, so we de-greased the threads & put some really strong Loctite on there, so that will probably be staying on. I also doubt I will bother removing the flywheel, it's not hard to remove the flywheel on these, or the clutch (it's a fairly simple, centrifugal clutch), but I don't know about the bottom end, the manual makes it look easy, but they always do.

To start with I decided to give it the usual service treatment to the top end, which involves removing the head, barrel & piston, cleaning & de-greasing it all, de-coke the piston, the backs of the rings, the ring grooves, ports, head etc etc, clean, scrape & polish all mating faces & cut new gaskets for everything....





I removed the piston rings to clean & check. I know we probably all know how to do this, but I've always mentioned the method I use, with 3 strips of metal (more for larger pistons), but never bothered to show a pic of what I meant, so here goes....



This is the safest method (without special tools) & with a little patience should get the rings off without any damage. You need to be careful with piston rings, they are very brittle & won't take a lot of stress in the wrong direction. They are also very very sharp on their edges, so be careful. (Like I say, you probably all know this, so apologies for teaching granny to suck eggs).

Anyway, I can't say I'm impressed with Stuart Turners now, I always thought they were good little engines, but now I can see why they are so temperamental, just look at the piston ring pegs for example....



To save time, effort & money they've just put one big peg in the piston ring grooves, so now both ring gaps will be in the same place! Shocked I mean, how bloody silly is that?!! We are always told not to line up the ring gaps! They make it so you have to!

I'm also less than impressed with their porting & their head design. The spark plug is in the wrong place in the head, it more or less sits over the wrong part of the deflector top piston!

Anyway, I digress....

I decided to open up the water jacket by removing the 2 side plates, so I could poke some tools in there & get rid of some scale. I would like to coat the inside, but don't know what type of paint is best. Any ideas anyone??? (I know some people paint inside hoppers).

I tested the ring end gaps by using the piston to squarely push each ring into the cylinder barrel. You then remove the piston, leaving the ring in there, & measure the gap with feeler gauge....



Lovely gap on that one, .013", very nice. How about the other....



Oh well, can't win 'em all!

I cleaned up all mating faces by using a small scraper, then some fine wet & dry paper sprayed with a little GT85 (anything will do, it's just to add a little lubrication). After a good wipe off they all looked really good. I've still got to cut gaskets though.

Then I text Ian & asked him if he would like me to strip the paint off & prepare it for priming? he said no! Shocked (honestly, you can't help some people. How many of you would pass up the chance of having all that work done for you, completely free of charge?)

Anyway, the next day I said "Are you sure?" & he said "Oh, OK then, if you must!" (or words to that effect), so that's where I got to. The pic in my first post, of all the bits, sitting together in the workshop, covered in paint stripper. I've 2nd coated it this morning & will continue with it over the next few days.

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Re: Ian's Stuart Turner P5XC

Post by Foden on Sun Nov 25 2012, 18:14

I wouldn't worry about the ring gaps aligning, Ford did extensive research years ago on their performance engines and found that it made not the slightest difference in running, they also opened the gaps up to well above the maximum tolerance and found no difference again. They marked the rings when fitting the piston in the bore and found when dismantling the engine after test running that they had all changed position anyway.
I had a Stuart P5 which needed a lot of work but ended up selling it for parts to get another one up and running, always liked them as I used to go to college next to their works in Henley and admired them in the shop window all nice and polished! Might get another one day.

Pete.

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Re: Ian's Stuart Turner P5XC

Post by Ianhw77k on Sun Nov 25 2012, 19:36

You can strip the bottom end if you want, I told you that!
I'm not sure I'll be keeping the clutch on there anyway, it seems like more of a liability than anything. A pulley would be far more useful and that clutch makes some very startling noises Shocked

Oh yeah, thanks for the info Pete, useful as ever Smile

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Re: Ian's Stuart Turner P5XC

Post by nutgone on Sun Nov 25 2012, 20:11

Thanks for the info Pete, it's interesting, how some of these things, which seem to make sense & which we're all always told to adhere to actually make little, if any, difference to the running of an engine.

certainly learned something new today.

Ian, I may have to take the flywheel & clutch off anyway, as the paint stripping will be a lot easier as will the forthcoming prep work. Dunno how far I'll take it though, it's a roller big end (obviously, most 2 strokes are I believe) but this one is also a roller main crank shaft, so it may well pay to have it all apart & check all the bearings, make sure everything's clean & clear & then we'll know it's been put together properly (remembering the previous owner, & some of the little things I've already discovered???)

I'll see how it goes, if the clutch nut comes off easy enough then I'll take it off. I think the flywheel is coming off regardless, but that's hardly rocket surgery or brain science confused clown

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Re: Ian's Stuart Turner P5XC

Post by nutgone on Sun Nov 25 2012, 20:16

Oh yes, & someone tell him not to worry, I'll have it finished in no time. In fact, I bet we'll be putting it forward for Miss January or February, in a nice shiny coat of Scarlet Red.

I'm going to take a leaf out of FowlerA7modle's book & see if I can get a really nice finish on this one. It's my painting guinea pig, if you like. Very Happy (not that I don't normally get a perfectly acceptable finish, I would just like to better myself a bit on my paintwork skills).

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Re: Ian's Stuart Turner P5XC

Post by Foden on Sun Nov 25 2012, 20:19

The main bearings are ball races but the big end is seperate needle rollers which would require the crank splitting. Mine was full of water so the needles had rotted away but if yours feels ok then leave well alone! Wink

Pete.

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Re: Ian's Stuart Turner P5XC

Post by nutgone on Sun Nov 25 2012, 21:03

Foden wrote:The main bearings are ball races but the big end is seperate needle rollers which would require the crank splitting. Mine was full of water so the needles had rotted away but if yours feels ok then leave well alone! Wink

Pete.

I wasn't gona split the crank itself, I might be a bit bored, but I'm no masochist! I was considering splitting the cases & taking the shaft out to inspect the main bearings, but TBH there's no play or rumbling, I just wanted to make sure the crank case was nice & clean (there's oil in the bottom at the moment, & it looks a little dirty in there).

No, I'm not into setting up crank webs, especially needle roller ones. I've read all about it & it's the kind of thing I could do with a good workshop, I probably would've done it when I was at college, but that was some time ago now & my workshop facilities just aren't up to it.

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Re: Ian's Stuart Turner P5XC

Post by Ianhw77k on Sun Nov 25 2012, 21:21

As long as the main bearings aren't a press fit then yeah, go ahead.
It'll be interesting to see it all apart and useful to others I reckon, just don't go whacking any shaft ends.
I'll drop the heat gun over soon, that'll be useful with that loctited nut Wink

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Re: Ian's Stuart Turner P5XC

Post by nutgone on Sun Nov 25 2012, 21:42

Ianhw77k wrote:As long as the main bearings aren't a press fit then yeah, go ahead.
It'll be interesting to see it all apart and useful to others I reckon, just don't go whacking any shaft ends.
I'll drop the heat gun over soon, that'll be useful with that loctited nut Wink

I'm over your's on Tuesday anyway, working on the boys' Lister.

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Re: Ian's Stuart Turner P5XC

Post by stationary stu on Mon Nov 26 2012, 11:54

Nice start to the restoration Nuts (Ian) good to hear that it looks as if all parts are re-useable. Pete a mind of information as usual, we do miss you in the Summer to keep us right Pete. Wink

Stu.

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Re: Ian's Stuart Turner P5XC

Post by kevjhnsn on Mon Nov 26 2012, 17:43

nutty matt
have you finished it yet for ian lol! lol!
as we know you dont pzz around Very Happy Very Happy
kev

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Re: Ian's Stuart Turner P5XC

Post by nutgone on Mon Nov 26 2012, 19:26

Sorry Kev, not finished yet, but have moved on a bit.

Today I got the flywheel off, then I had to put it back on again so I had something to hold onto whilst I undid the nut on the other end of the shaft.
This nut is the nut which secures the clutch, this is the one which kept loosening when we ran the engine, so I carefully applied some Loctite. This was the green Loctite, the really strong one. I can tell you, this is bloody strong stuff! Embarassed

I heated it up twice to try & melt the Loctite, but I still had to use a big adjustable spanner & a club hammer & I had to strike the adjustable EVERY stroke to get the nut off, it truly was a fight to the death! never let it be said I don't know how to apply Loctite!

Anyway, I managed to split the crank cases & after some heating & bashing (with wood) I managed to get one half off (the flywheel half)....



I've also dismantled the other end of the shaft, & removed all the covers, bearings, spacers, washers & seals, but the governor still remains in there, as does the other end of the shaft.

Can anyone tell me how to get this half of the crank case off??? Here's what's left of the governor, I removed 2 small allen headed grub-screws, but nothing's moving....



Basically, here's what's left together, & I can't shift it (I don't want to just belt the end of the shaft, until I know what's holding things together)....



I've taken pictures of everything as it's come off, & put all the bearings, spacers etc etc in the correct order & put them onto wire to hold them in the correct order....



Always worth doing, so it all goes back correctly.

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Re: Ian's Stuart Turner P5XC

Post by nutgone on Mon Nov 26 2012, 22:36

Too late you lot! I've discovered how the governor is attached, the manuals were no help either, had to work it out all by myself, but it's all apart (as far as I want to take it anyway) & I haven't broken anything! sunny



It turns out the governor is threaded onto the crank shaft, not the easiest thing to get off, but manageable....







So now it's just a case of cleaning & checking everything then getting it all back together. I might well prime it all up before reassembly, not sure yet. There's not supposed to be a gasket between the crank case halves, just jointing compound, so that's saved me one tricky gasket, the rest of them are pretty easy, I just need some bigger hole punches.

So far all the bearings & seals seem fine, so that's good. I can't get both main bearings off the shaft, just one came off with any ease, so I'll leave the other one on there & clean it in situ.

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Re: Ian's Stuart Turner P5XC

Post by kevjhnsn on Mon Nov 26 2012, 23:43

good lad
keep it up,
ian will be having an early crimbo present Very Happy Very Happy
kev

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Re: Ian's Stuart Turner P5XC

Post by Ianhw77k on Mon Nov 26 2012, 23:58

kevjhnsn wrote:good lad
keep it up,
ian will be having an early crimbo present Very Happy Very Happy
kev
It's gonna need a bit more money throwing at it first. This one is not going to be a cheap project Rolling Eyes

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Re: Ian's Stuart Turner P5XC

Post by nutgone on Tue Nov 27 2012, 00:02

Oh yes, the plan is to convert it back to radiator cooling, so there'll be some engineering involved. I'm not sure how much I will be doing, my main aim is to get the main engine back together for now & see how it goes.

We've got a suitable rad, but it needs re-coring. Is that a difficult job? Or should we leave it to the professionals??? It's metal tanks & I can probably get hold of a core easy enough.

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Re: Ian's Stuart Turner P5XC

Post by stationary stu on Tue Nov 27 2012, 10:36

Great news you've got it all stripped but I have to ask ..... how the hell did you find out the governor was screwed on to the shaft? Think if it was mine it would be in the scrap box now Embarassed Laughing Laughing Laughing
Keep up the good work.

Stu.

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Re: Ian's Stuart Turner P5XC

Post by nutgone on Tue Nov 27 2012, 11:26

stationary stu wrote:Great news you've got it all stripped but I have to ask ..... how the hell did you find out the governor was screwed on to the shaft? Think if it was mine it would be in the scrap box now Embarassed Laughing Laughing Laughing
Keep up the good work.

Stu.

Funny you should ask Stu, basically it's thanks to an impromptu trip to Lidl with my mother the other day, they had torches on special offer. I always like to keep a small torch in the workshop for these jobs, it's always easier to spot something by torch light, as your eye is more focused. We did have a torch in there, but a few weeks ago my mum nicked it to put in her car, so I got one from Lidl for £4.99 (with batteries).

It took me a long while to decide it was actually threaded, I even put my glasses on at one point. There was a lot of looking, & staring at it, I tried to get it off a few times, without success, then I put the lead soft jaws in the vice & gripped the shaft, & was tapping away thinking it must be the whole shaft turning, when I checked in the vice the shaft keyway was still in the same place, & sure enough it was moving.

Moral of the story, always keep a good little torch in your workshop (they are also better for finding dropped small items).

I also saw Arc Welders in Lidl, but I didn't have enough money to buy one & I think my mum would've noticed if I'd just slipped it in her trolley!

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Re: Ian's Stuart Turner P5XC

Post by stationary stu on Tue Nov 27 2012, 11:47

Nicely spotted I would never have guessed at it being screwed on but you learn something new everyday. Very Happy

We go shopping in Aldi every few weeks as they sell cat food that our cats prefer so when I'm in I always check out the tools and try and slip them in the trolley, it's strange when we get to the check out my wife knows exactly how much I owe her, I wonder if it's a woman thing, they can smell tools or something. Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

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Re: Ian's Stuart Turner P5XC

Post by nutgone on Wed Nov 28 2012, 23:21

Right, I managed to do a little more on this today. I suddenly remembered how I get rid of paint stripper & get those final layers off, I use a bucket of hot soapy water & some wire wool (I'd forgotten all about that, but it's been a while since I've used paint stripper).

So, out came the hot water & the wire wool & I got what I could off the Stuart pieces, I put them to dry just before having dinner. Then I set to finishing them off with the wire brush drill attachment, using the dremmel thing for any tight corners. I try to stop using power tools or anything noisy around 8:30 - 9:00pm, & by then I had done most of it....



I will probably give each piece a final sand off & clean before painting (I still need to get the primer, Ian's supposed to get it, but it'll all be rusted away before he gets a chance so I'll pop out tomorrow & get some, he can reimburse me next time I see him). But it should all look pretty good with a good primer, maybe an undercoat & a gloss finish. he's talking about bright red, like Scarlet, or Post-box Red, that kind of thing, which could look really nice.

I also dismantled the clutch & got the bearings out. they are caked in old grease. It's not gone too bad, but is very sticky, so I've washed it all off & put the bearings, spacer & end plate into soak in some kerosene/stale petrol mixture. I've started to scrape the paint off the outside of the clutch (can't dip this bit in a bucket of soapy water) & it looks pretty good. These clutches are very heavy & pretty substantial bits of kit....



Finally I thought I would put the governor springs back on, shouldn't be that difficult, should it? Oh yes it was! My advice to anyone doing one of these, leave the governor springs on if you can, they are a tight fit at each end & they are very strong springs, their resting position is roughly double their length when taken off!....



So that's it for tonight, I went back indoors thinking it was 10:30 & realised it was only 9:30! Shocked Bloody typical, I could've had the crank shaft ready to go back in if I'd known! Never mind, it gave me time to update the Homelite thread, which I've been meaning to do for days now.

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Re: Ian's Stuart Turner P5XC

Post by stationary stu on Thu Nov 29 2012, 11:18

Nice work Matt but you wouldn't get me out in the shed at 9.30 at night unless it was something important to do. Laughing Laughing Laughing

Stu.

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Re: Ian's Stuart Turner P5XC

Post by nutgone on Thu Nov 29 2012, 11:23

stationary stu wrote:Nice work Matt but you wouldn't get me out in the shed at 9.30 at night unless it was something important to do. Laughing Laughing Laughing

Stu.

I would normally be out there for at least another hour. There's not much on telly these days & I can smoke in the workshop, I've also got a Calor Gas heater out there, so I'm warm. It's my favourite place. Very Happy

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Re: Ian's Stuart Turner P5XC

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