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Ian's Stuart Turner P5XC

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Re: Ian's Stuart Turner P5XC

Post by nutgone on Thu Nov 29 2012, 23:05

Got cracking with this today, need to get it out the way for my forthcoming new project. I managed to find some decent metal primer, it was only £9-odd a litre....



I believe Teamac is good stuff, & this is oil/solvent based, so much better than the other crap I had.

So I started off giving a few bits a final sand off & a first coat of this new primer (it goes on lovely Very Happy )....





Then I thought I'd better see if I could get the crank cases back together & all the seals & bearings set up correctly. I started with the flywheel side, put the bearing back on the shaft & drove it right down to the crank web. Then I applied the 3 part seal (all washed off & coated in oil). Then I had to put the flywheel collet on, this is supposed to be a sliding fit, as it is split on the taper, which is supposed to close up when the flywheel is tightened on, but it definitely was not a sliding fit for me. I cleaned it all up & even heated it to try & get it to expand a bit, but it still wouldn't slide onto the shaft. I gave it a quick going over with a sanding drum on the dremmel (these will remove a small amount of material & are a good way of doing so, as they are a lot more gentle than a dremmel grinding wheel). Even then it had to be driven on with a block of wood & a hammer! Embarassed

Still, on it went & I started to get the crank case half over the seal & bearing. I heated the case a little & managed to get it on with wood & hammer. I didn't go mad as I knew I would be able to finish it off by tightening the bolts when the other half was almost on.

The other side was easier, I could put the split bronze ring (part of the 3 part crank case seal) into the recess before I put the shaft in, so it was just the bearing that needed driving home. This side went on without any heating & I soon had both halves together.

I coated the joint with Blue Hylomar (the book says a jointing compound, & I reckon this is the best stuff for this job, as there's no gasket. I prefer to use Wellseal with a gasket) I tightened it all together with the crank case nuts, then I remembered that you're supposed to tighten the head & barrel on before you finally tighten the crank case nuts! Rolling Eyes

So i quickly loosened them off again & put the head & barrel on, tightened it all down & re-tightened the crank case nuts. Then took the head & barrel back off again, ready for the piston to go on. (piston was still off at this point)....



Then I cut a barrel base gasket & applied some wellseal to the mating faces. Whilst I waited for that to dry off a bit (they recommend 5 minutes before putting it all together) I thought this would be a good time to put the piston on....



So I got the barrel on & was faced with the decision of the head gasket. Now, I know the head isn't quite right on this engine, well something isn't quite flat & I'm guessing it's the head, but it's not far out. So it needs a thick gasket.
You may remember Ian asking, some time ago, about cutting a new head gasket from some material he got off eBay (I think it's called Tesnit), he did this, & whilst it's not the best bit of gasket cutting in the world, it's easily good enough. Trouble is this gasket has been on once & the engine was run (only once though). It came off pretty in good shape, so I decided to be very naughty, very very naughty....

Not only did I re-use a head gasket with no metal in it, I also applied wellseal to the mating faces! affraid (there, I said it! Shocked Embarassed )



Well, as I see it, it's got 2 chances. If it works then great, it's certainly not going to be run for some time, so it'll all have good time to go off & settle in. If it doesn't work then we'll have to whip the head off, clean the faces & cut another gasket. No big deal.

I'm gona split this post here, as it's getting a bit long & rambling, but there is more to come, I've been a very busy boy today, staying in the workshop until after 10:00pm.

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Re: Ian's Stuart Turner P5XC

Post by nutgone on Thu Nov 29 2012, 23:25

Right, so I've got what now resembles an engine. I forgot to say I've been applying extra primer as I go. The bottom end is built up, & the head & barrel are on & torqued down (think I went up to 20 Lb/Ft in the end). Next I decided to put the governor back on. pretty straight forward really, it just screws back on & you tighten in the 2 grub screws to make sure it doesn't come off. But then everything goes a bit tight. A slight tap on the governor end of the crank shaft with a copper mallet & it's all settled in & moving freely again. Very Happy

I couldn't go any further with this side of things as the timing chain case isn't ready to be primed yet & I still need to wash all the bearings & spacers & coat them in clean oil.

So I thought I would replace the 2 water jacket plates (the bits with "STUART" written on them). When these came off there appeared to be special washers under each countersunk brass screw. On closer examination these "special" washers appeared to be nothing more than fibre washers, they simply take up the cone shape when tightened down. But they were also coated in old jointing compound, so I figured I would see if I had anything in my fibre washer collection to do the job & treat it like all the other gaskets (with Wellseal).

these fibre washers need to be a close fit round the thread of the screws, I found some very suitable ones in my metric collection (of all places). So, I cut the gaskets for the plates & gave all the internal bits a coating of primer (just to give them a fighting chance in the future) got everything ready & applied Wellseal to all the mating faces, including the brass screws & the countersinks in the metal plates themselves (which must be treated as gasket faces, as there will be water behind them)....



I gave it all a few minutes to go off & put it all together.



The rest of my time was spent cutting gaskets & putting it all back together. By the time I was ready to finish I had something closely resembling a Stuart Turner (might need a hand off the bench with it though, it's suddenly gone from "Heavy" to Bloody Heavy!" Embarassed )....



Tomorrow I need to concentrate on finishing off the rest of the prep work on the final bits, ready for priming & getting the timing/governer case innards together.

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Re: Ian's Stuart Turner P5XC

Post by stationary stu on Fri Nov 30 2012, 12:28

Wow a great days work there Nuts you must have been well pleased with yourself when you turned the shed light out last night. And best of all no real headaches on the rebuild which is always a bonus.
Sorry to say but this statement is now with you till the day you die "
Not only did I re-use a head gasket with no metal in it, I also applied wellseal to the mating faces! (there, I said it! ) this now overtakes fitting the piston the wrong way round. Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing
Just pulling your leg Nuts you have to do what you have to do and if it's going to seal the head which you say is slightly out then it has to be done.

Stu.

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Re: Ian's Stuart Turner P5XC

Post by nutgone on Fri Nov 30 2012, 12:56

We'll see. I know we've still got enough of the Tesnit gasket material to cut a whole new gasket if needs be, but I hope I don't have to. I bet that'll be a bugger to get the old one off now, after the Wellseal.

I only put a very thin smear on though, as I'm worried about it getting into the piston rings. It shouldn't as the gasket should soak up any excess & I was very careful with it.

Anyway, I'm back in there in a minute. Just stopped for lunch.

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Re: Ian's Stuart Turner P5XC

Post by nutgone on Fri Nov 30 2012, 23:53

Well, I got the rest of the governor end bits on the crank shaft, managed to keep it all in the right order....



Then I prepped & primed the timing case & put it back on (the mag is only temporarily on there, just to keep the chain in place whilst the primer goes off)....



I also finished off stripping the paint from the awkward parts of the flywheel & primed that as well. Then I spent the rest of the afternoon & evening polishing up the brasswork. Some of the smaller bits got the battery acid treatment for a couple of hours, all of it got thoroughly de-greased with brake & clutch cleaner then polished with Autosol & the dremmel with a mini polishing mop on. I'd forgotten just how quick & useful this machine was with polishing, it's such easy work, I can't believe I've been making my hands ache all this time by hand polishing! I do recommend a good quality, microfibre buffing cloth for afterwards though, it really brings stuff up a treat....









I dunno about this carb drip tray though. It's made of copper, but has a rather tatty looking brass gauze filter soldered into it. Now I don't see the point in this filter, you're not likely to re-use the fuel from the drip tray, & the soldering has come away in places & the gauze just looks tatty & unsightly.

I reckon I should take the gauze off & polish up the copper drip tray. I've taken some pics, one of the top, showing the gauze filter, the other of the bottom, after a quick polish (by hand, it was too late to use the dremmel, dunno if the neighbours can hear it or not, but don't wanna find out!)...





I'll let Ian decide what to do, I know what I would do though.

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Re: Ian's Stuart Turner P5XC

Post by kevjhnsn on Sat Dec 01 2012, 03:18

nutty
flying like duck again lad Very Happy Very Happy
coming allong very well indead
i have well sould still have a stuart 5 p5 marine i think ,the carb float needle water proof cover that sits on top of the stuart casted top in your pic
it has 3 brass screws and is also brass with a raised center for the float travell as the needle goes up and down if you dont have one let me know and will dig it out and take some pics of it for you to see
kev

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Re: Ian's Stuart Turner P5XC

Post by nutgone on Sat Dec 01 2012, 11:03

kevjhnsn wrote:nutty
flying like duck again lad Very Happy Very Happy
coming allong very well indead
i have well sould still have a stuart 5 p5 marine i think ,the carb float needle water proof cover that sits on top of the stuart casted top in your pic
it has 3 brass screws and is also brass with a raised center for the float travell as the needle goes up and down if you dont have one let me know and will dig it out and take some pics of it for you to see
kev

No I haven't got one, not sure if I've seen one before. Would be interested to see it. I know the later P5s went over to Amal carbs, the Stuart ones look nice, but Stuart were pump & engine manufacturers really, not carb makers. Still they are a work of art when you take one apart, good to see how a different engineer tackles the problem of getting a metered air & fuel mixture supply into an engine.

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Re: Ian's Stuart Turner P5XC

Post by stationary stu on Sat Dec 01 2012, 12:17

It does seem a bit odd to have the gauze filter as it's not as if your going to get that much petrol out of it there again if the carbs ok you shouldn't get any petrol, very strange.

Stu.

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Re: Ian's Stuart Turner P5XC

Post by Ianhw77k on Sat Dec 01 2012, 21:43

Take it off if it doesn't look right. I'd better get some paint soon as I don't want this one hanging around in primer for too long. Mind you, on second thoughts there is still a fair amount of work to do with the rad and other stuff.
I really want to make a nice lighting set out of this one. Are we going to be able to do away with that clutch and fit a pulley on there? If so what size is the shaft? That motor we've got would look good mounted next to this.

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Re: Ian's Stuart Turner P5XC

Post by nutgone on Sat Dec 01 2012, 22:04

Ianhw77k wrote:Take it off if it doesn't look right. I'd better get some paint soon as I don't want this one hanging around in primer for too long. Mind you, on second thoughts there is still a fair amount of work to do with the rad and other stuff.
I really want to make a nice lighting set out of this one. Are we going to be able to do away with that clutch and fit a pulley on there? If so what size is the shaft? That motor we've got would look good mounted next to this.

Yes the clutch can come off, I will measure the shaft for you tomorrow (it's too bloody cold out there now). The governor bits & bobs are all held in place by the bearing & timing case, only a spacer could possibly come out, but a pulley can be mounted against that.

I will take that gauze off tomorrow, or whenever I get round to it & polish up the tray then put it back on the carb.

I reckon it'll be well worth getting the top coat(s) of paint on it now, primer is better the sooner it is over-coated. The rest of the work can be done as & when.

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Re: Ian's Stuart Turner P5XC

Post by Ianhw77k on Sat Dec 01 2012, 22:14

OK, I've got no work on Monday, might well pop round and do some paint shopping.

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Re: Ian's Stuart Turner P5XC

Post by nutgone on Sat Dec 01 2012, 22:19

Ianhw77k wrote:OK, I've got no work on Monday, might well pop round and do some paint shopping.

OK, I braved it & went out for a fag (I also had to get the cat back in Rolling Eyes )

the shaft is 1" diameter with a .25" key. I've painted the flexi-metal inlet pipe black & put it on with the brass clips (now nicely polished) it looks really good, but I didn't have my phone with me to take a pic.

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Re: Ian's Stuart Turner P5XC

Post by Ianhw77k on Sat Dec 01 2012, 22:31

That metal flexi pipe looks a bit small in the dia for the air filter. Do the brass clips cover that up? I can't remember any brass clips.

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Re: Ian's Stuart Turner P5XC

Post by nutgone on Sat Dec 01 2012, 22:36

Ianhw77k wrote:That metal flexi pipe looks a bit small in the dia for the air filter. Do the brass clips cover that up? I can't remember any brass clips.

It's what was originally on there, & is perfect in size, it's just a bit of a sod to fit. The brass clips were round the rubber hose, one was vandalised as it was too small, it had been bent around & a different screw put in it. I managed to find the original screw, bend it back into shape & re-tap a square brass nut for it to screw in to.

It improves the look of the engine IMO. If you're about tomorrow then pop in & have a look. I also started to take the clutch apart, but took as much off as I dared & still it's not coming apart, so I expect I'll just put it back together before it springs apart on me & all the bits go flying!

Anyway, if you're not about tomorrow I will see you on Monday.

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Re: Ian's Stuart Turner P5XC

Post by nutgone on Fri Dec 07 2012, 13:42

Not much to report on this one, but it is moving on slowly.

Monday; Ian & me went paint shopping. We looked through the RAL colour chart in the shop & Ian picked out what looked like a nice bright red.

Wednesday: I went off to pick up the paint, bought it home & gave the flywheel a coat (shown with a couple of light red objects for comparison)....



Hmm, that's not red, that's orange!!! Also, it needs 2 coats, & will most likely be lighter on the 2nd coat as it's covering a darker primer.

So, I took a load of pictures & messaged them to him. We have decided that is pretty much the orange we wanted to paint the Lister D, & we can't send it back, so looks like we're keeping it.
After much thought we decided that it just wouldn't look right on a Stuart Turner. You really need to think when choosing colours from a chart. You need to go about a full shade darker than what you think. This is exactly what happened with the Tarpen, the green looked fine on the chart, but when it arrived it was a shade too light.

Thursday: I take the opportunity to give the primer a quick sand down with some P500 Wet&Dry paper & a water spary, then dry it off, clean it down with brake & clutch cleaner & give it another coat of primer (hopefully this will mean a really good finish on the top coat)

Friday (today); I've been back down the pain shop & ordered a litre of "Post Office Red". The paint isn't expensive, but it is an old fashioned machine enamel, it's not like Rustoleum, which is self undercoating, has built-in rust inhibitors & doesn't need primer, this needs a good primer to protect the metal, but it is about half the price of Rustoleum, only £12.20 for a litre, & is available in all the old tractor colours, as well as all the RAL & BS colours. It goes on very well, almost a one coat job, but really needs 2 coats to finish properly.

Anyway, it arrives next Tuesday, so I should be able to get a coat on then. Then it will need to go off for a few days before I can give it a quick rub down with the P500 again & give it a 2nd, & final, coat.

Well, that's the plan.

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Re: Ian's Stuart Turner P5XC

Post by stationary stu on Sat Dec 08 2012, 11:50

When ordering paint of the chart the colour always looks wrong, I had some mixed up for me while I waited and when it came out it was a totally different shade. I told the guy this and asked if he could put a squirt of black into it to darken it down but he said he couldn't do that and had to mix up a new batch so I had to go 2 shades darker to get the colour I wanted.

Stu.

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Re: Ian's Stuart Turner P5XC

Post by nutgone on Sat Dec 08 2012, 12:13

I just hope that a colour called "Post Office Red" is close to what we want. He really wants a Scarlet Red type of colour, which is pretty much post office (pillarbox red as I call it).

It looked too dark on the chart, which is a good sign in my book. Laughing

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Re: Ian's Stuart Turner P5XC

Post by stationary stu on Sat Dec 08 2012, 12:25

The colour of the primer can make a difference to the top coat shade so you might have to change the colour of your primer to get the colour/shade you want.

Stu.

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Re: Ian's Stuart Turner P5XC

Post by nutgone on Tue Dec 11 2012, 20:04

OK, so the "Post Office Red" arrived today, the paint shop even remembered to ring me & let me know it was in, which was nice.

I got it home, opened it up & it looks much better. Perhaps still a little bright, but it's much better & difficult to tell when it's in the tin (also, the light's not fantastic).

So I got cracking straight away, I'd even bought a new, decent(ish) quality half inch brush (it's only a small engine, & with so many nooks & crannies I find it easier to just use a smaller brush for the whole thing).

here's some of the early results....





& it seems to be darkening slightly as it dries. I've been back in there & it's almost touch-dry now & has gone a lovely deep rich colour with a good shine to it, which is a good sign for a first thin coat.

It will be getting 2 top coats in total, & I will be aiming to leave it a good few days (preferably a week) to harden off a bit so I can give it a little rub down between coats with some fine wet & dry paper (P500 is what I've got, so that's what I'll be using, I guess).

Just for comparison, here's what it looks like next to the RAL2002 colour Ian chose before....




That other colour seems to be very close to the orange that Calor paint their propane cylinders. In fact I would go as far as to say, it IS the same colour as Calor paint their propane cylinders. I reckon it'll look good on the Lister D Very Happy (with black detailing).

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Re: Ian's Stuart Turner P5XC

Post by stationary stu on Wed Dec 12 2012, 12:22

You can easy tell the difference Laughing Laughing Laughing Place I once worked had the trucks painted poppy red which might be near your first red as it was very orangey. I used to hate poppy red so when I had to order some paint I got the wrong one and ordered post office red, it wasn't till our big furniture truck was painted I noticed my mistake and I'd ordered enough paint to paint the out big box truck so after that his colour was changed LOL (for the better I may add) Laughing Laughing Laughing

Stu.

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Re: Ian's Stuart Turner P5XC

Post by nutgone on Wed Dec 12 2012, 12:36

I've been out there this morning & it looks really good. You can tell it needs another coat, but I think it looks great. She almost looks like a fire engine appliance, it really suits the rounded lines of the Stuart Turner engine. Once the brass is all back on & the couple of little bits I painted black, it should look a real treat.

I'm taking my time with this one though, I want to get it right. Painting engines has never been my strong point, which is strange as when I was a painter & decorator I was very good & a bit of a perfectionist. This one's had 2 coats of primer, with a rub down between coats. I applied the first top coat with a decent brush & took my time. I'm really tempted to go out there now & do the 2nd top coat, but I think I will leave it to go off for a few days, then I can rub it down with some P500 & make sure the 2nd top coat is the final top coat. If I manage to keep my patience this one should look really good.

I'm really happy with it so far anyway. Very Happy

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Re: Ian's Stuart Turner P5XC

Post by stationary stu on Wed Dec 12 2012, 13:01

Nuts try to be patient with it as it's going to take a lot longer for the paint to go off with it being so cold and damp. If you can wait them few extra days the finished result will be a lot better. cheers cheers cheers

Stu.

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Re: Ian's Stuart Turner P5XC

Post by Ianhw77k on Wed Dec 12 2012, 23:16

Yeah, take your time!

It's looking really good though, need to start looking at getting that rad sorted soon and some way of mounting it. Lets hope she starts reliably as well.

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Re: Ian's Stuart Turner P5XC

Post by kevjhnsn on Thu Dec 13 2012, 02:21

nutgone wrote:
kevjhnsn wrote:nutty
flying like duck again lad Very Happy Very Happy
coming allong very well indead
i have well sould still have a stuart 5 p5 marine i think ,the carb float needle water proof cover that sits on top of the stuart casted top in your pic
it has 3 brass screws and is also brass with a raised center for the float travell as the needle goes up and down if you dont have one let me know and will dig it out and take some pics of it for you to see
kev

No I haven't got one, not sure if I've seen one before. Would be interested to see it. I know the later P5s went over to Amal carbs, the Stuart ones look nice, but Stuart were pump & engine manufacturers really, not carb makers. Still they are a work of art when you take one apart, good to see how a different engineer tackles the problem of getting a metered air & fuel mixture supply into an engine.

heres the pics of said item mate



what you thinking
kev

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Re: Ian's Stuart Turner P5XC

Post by nutgone on Tue Dec 18 2012, 19:31

Kev, sorry not to get back to you. I'll PM you about the carb cover when I get a chance mate, cheers.

I've gone to great lengths today to put a decent 2nd coat of paint on this engine. The sun came out at one point, around lunchtime. So I bought the paint indoors & put it on a radiator to warm it up a bit. I let the sun do it's work for a while, whilst I had other stuff to do, then I eventually finished all my afternoon appointments etc. & put the heater on in the workshop. I also put on a fan heater & 2 gas camping heaters, then I took the dogs for a walk while it all warmed up. (don't worry, someone was around to keep an eye on things, just in case).

Then I got in there & switched off the camping heaters, as gas heaters give off water vapour & I didn't want too much condensation. I warmed the engine up a bit with a hot-air gun for a little while, then cracked on with the painting.

After that I've slowly cooled down the workshop, turning off the big gas heater, it's just the fan heater now, on it's lowest setting & that will go off once the paint is touch dry. My thinking is; once the paint is on & drying, it's pretty much there & there's nothing much more you can do.

I've been doing this in between sealing petrol tanks & checking out the shimming on the Scott. Just hope it's a good coat, & hope even more that it doesn't require a third!

Oh yes, pics to follow once it's dry & I can move it around. I want to take it outside for photos this time, in the hope of better colour rendering. (rendering??? Or should that be rending??? Not sure scratch )

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Re: Ian's Stuart Turner P5XC

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