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My New P & J, a Scott.

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Re: My New P & J, a Scott.

Post by nutgone on Thu Dec 06 2012, 22:48

Stu, try plugging your phone into your computer. You then go to "My Computer" (on your computer) & look for other disk drives, it'll be one of those. You just go in & look through the folders until you find the pics, then you copy & paste them into your documents (I made a new folder for the whole lot so it didn't get mixed up, as I'm on a borrowed laptop).

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Re: My New P & J, a Scott.

Post by nutgone on Thu Dec 06 2012, 23:21

Right, I got so bored today I decided to have a look into the fuel gauge & see what it's all about.

I managed to get it out of the tank & see how it works. I thought if I could glue a needle onto the shaft I could get it reading, but then I realised the float won't float, here's the whole story with pics....

The fuel gauge is made up of three rods. The two cylindrical outer rods hold the whole thing together, whereas the centre twisted square section rod pivots....



There is a brass plate at the bottom. This has a small tapered depression in the centre for the pivoting rod (a simple bush) & two screws go through into the ends of the fixed rods (these were soldered over, so I had to heat them up & un-screw them, originally I thought the rods were just soldered into the plate, but as it melted I saw the screw slot)....



Now, the twisted square section pivoting rod is what makes the reading. It's very simple, it just pokes up through the hole in the centre of the dial & a needle is attached on top (the needle is missing though)....



But this isn't the problem. The float has 3 holes in it. One is squared off, so as it rises it rotates the centre rod, therefore moving the needle, but there are 2 outer holes which the outer rods slide through....



Now, herein lies the problem. These 2 outer holes are made up of 2 sleeves, which are soldered into the main float. But somehow, over the years, these sleeves have come undone, leaving the float open to fill up with fuel....





Scale is a real problem here, this thing isn't as big as it looks in the pictures. You'll just have to try & imagine it from the other pics. The outer holes in the float are just over a quarter inch (the rods are .25" diameter)

So, it can be fixed, but can I fix it??? It's going to test my soldering skills to the limit! this is really tricky stuff. I'm even considering maybe trying to make a new float out of some other material.

At least I can test it as I go, now it's all in bits. But these things are a pain to do. Trouble is, if you do it, then test it & it leaks, it's then difficult to carry on soldering. If you test it in petrol you could end up blowing your eyebrows off when you re-heat it for further soldering, if you test it in water it probably won't solder as there will be water in it (have you ever tried to solder a pipe joint with water still in there? This will be sealed, so steam will probably blow the solder before it has a chance to cool).

Any ideas? Or should I just man up & get the hell on with it! Embarassed

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Re: My New P & J, a Scott.

Post by stationary stu on Fri Dec 07 2012, 11:46

Nuts you can more then likly do it but you need a day where your in no hurry and in a ggod frame of mind before you start Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

Just a thought but can you not do the same as micro chip makers do and solder flux it all up then put it into an oven at the correct temperature so it all melts in, you'll need to check the temp and how long it will take but that might be the easiest way, thing is if you mess up then just heat it up and start again, could you warm everything up before you start? Another thought is get a platic float a kids play set ball (sure your nephews wont miss one or two lol) and super glue/bond it together, just need a glue that can with stand petrol.

Stu.

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Re: My New P & J, a Scott.

Post by nutgone on Fri Dec 07 2012, 11:56

Cheers Stu, I will look into those options. I'm also wondering if I could put something plastic inside the float, like that expanding builders spray foam (that can be trimmed back where it comes out, but I don't know if it's petrol proof) or I could somehow bond some floats to the outside of the existing float (although then it wouldn't pass through the hole in the tank scratch )

I do have a large electric soldering iron. I bought it some time ago at one of this year's rallies. It's very old but it works fine. I picked it up because you don't seem to get them that big any more. I've also got 2 of the copper soldering irons, which you put on a gas ring & heat up. I'm kind of thinking an iron is the way to go with this, instead of a blow lamp (although my propane lamp is quite small & can be turned down quite low).

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Re: My New P & J, a Scott.

Post by Abes on Fri Dec 07 2012, 18:00

Try using a pencil soldering torch very small and precise flame

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Re: My New P & J, a Scott.

Post by nutgone on Fri Dec 07 2012, 18:05

Abes wrote:Try using a pencil soldering torch very small and precise flame

Or I could just put the bloody thing back together & stop fiddling with it!!! Mad

Nah, I will try & fix the float, it'll be a challenge. I've put it safely away on a shelf & will tackle it when I've got all the bits together. If I had a pencil torch I would probably use it, but I don't have one. They're pretty cheap though, might invest. I have some good flux, it's for electrical work really, but works much better than the plumbers stuff. I should probably get some Bakers Fluid though, it's still available & is what the radiator repairers generally use. It aint cheap though. Over £10 for a tiny little bottle (I used to have a bottle, but lost that years ago Rolling Eyes )

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Re: My New P & J, a Scott.

Post by nutgone on Fri Dec 07 2012, 18:15

Oh yes, I forgot to say, I dragged it out of the shed today & had another go at starting it. I pulled it over with the strap a few times but it wouldn't fire, so I gave it a little squirt of Easy-Start in the carb hole, pulled it over & it just started (fired but only just caught on). I've added a couple of new videos in the videos section (just seemed like the obvious place to me).

I would rather not use the stuff as I hear it's not good for engines, trouble is I can't use the choke on this one as it's spring loaded & designed to be held whilst handle starting. I'm guessing a lot of the trouble (apart from the cold weather) is starting it with a wide open throttle. These carbs really aren't designed to start at full throttle, I know the Douglas has a starting lever to close the throttle to idle position. But so many stationary engines start on full throttle, due to the way governors work, which just seems wrong to me.

Once it's been started it's fine though, almost fired up when I pushed the flywheel round by hand when it was warm!

The impulse on the mag only has one lever on it, there is a pin to put another one on, should it have 2? Would this make starting easier? The impulse doesn't seem that effective on this, especially with strap starting, but I've managed to start it a few times now & it's not like it's taken me all day to do so. So it's probably just me being picky.

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Re: My New P & J, a Scott.

Post by stationary stu on Sat Dec 08 2012, 12:20

When you start an engine with an impukse mag I was told to take it to the start of compression then just flick the engine over. The impulse part should give a better spark and start your engine like that. I know I have to start my Petter A1 that way.
Easystart is a big no no as it doesn't take long to get an engine addicted to the stuff.

Stu.

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Re: My New P & J, a Scott.

Post by nutgone on Sat Dec 08 2012, 12:39

I don't know if Easy Start is so bad on 2 strokes??? But I hate using the stuff, I only use a tiny little sniff of it, but even that I don't like.

I've found a different spring for the governor, which I'm going to fit today & see if I can't slow her down a bit.

Maybe I'll actually take some pics this time.

Oh yes, & I checked out the impulse, it's sparking every stroke, so there's no bits missing. But should the little cam thingies have a spring behind them??? I can look at an exploded diagram I suppose. It just seems to only impulse when spun very very slowly, I thought they were supposed to impulse up to about 100-200 revs?

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Re: My New P & J, a Scott.

Post by nutgone on Sat Dec 08 2012, 21:31

OK, I've had a go at that soldering (the float on the fuel gauge). I don't wanna say too much, but preliminary tests are looking good. I've got it weighted down in a jam jar of kerosene/petrol/2-stroke mixture. If it's still full of air in the morning I will be looking to fashion myself a needle & a new gasket, drill & tap some new fixing holes & get it all back together.

Knowing my luck it'll be full of the liquid by morning & it'll take me for ever to get it all out again! Rolling Eyes

Still, you never know. Fingers crossed.

EDIT:
Oh yes, as far as the starting goes, Ian came round a bit later. The engine was stone cold again, so we had another go but he held the choke for me. It started second pull, so it's obviously just that it needs some choke. I will see what I can make up to hold it for me, as the choke lever is spring loaded & really mounted for handle starting, so I need to make up some sort of wire hook to hold it for me while I pull the strap. Hopefully I won't have to use the dreaded Easy-Start again Very Happy

I tried it out with the softer spring in the governor today & it ran really slow, but I didn't like the noises it was making, it was really knocking, not like big ends or anything, more like a cowling clanking noise. It seemed better with the old spring back in, so it may well have been governor weights. I will have to try something else for slowing it down. I'm not so sure adjusting the throttle position will work, as surely the governor will be trying to get it to a certain speed regardless of throttle position??? Can't quite work it out, but could give it a try I suppose. Just so long as I mark the spindles & shafts so I know where it all goes if it doesn't work.

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Re: My New P & J, a Scott.

Post by nutgone on Mon Dec 10 2012, 18:39

Bit of a bittersweet day today. I finished off the fuel gauge on the Scott, even made myself up a new needle from some thin plastic packaging & made it black with a permanent marker pen. I tapped 3 new holes for it, as there was a snapped off screw in one of the old ones & I had some nice brass countersunk M4 screws which were perfect. I made up a new gasket & Wellseal'd it in place. I even polished up the perspex lens with some Autosol metal polish (you can actually polish scratches out of spectacles with that stuff) it looks great....





Also, I am now the full owner of this engine as well. I finally paid my dad off the extra bit of cash he loaned me in order to buy it, so that's good as well.

But the bitter bit comes from the repayment of this loan. Yes, that's right, today I had to wave goodbye to my little JAP model 3. I never intended to sell it, mainly because it cost me so much money (I just about broke even on it, I think. Might have made myself a drink on top, for all my time & effort).



My original plan with the JAP was to start a collection of smaller engines I could take to rallies on my own. Small units I could fit in the car, or at a push, in the caravan. The JAP was the first & only engine of this collection, which is now back to being just a pipe-dream.

Still, I never even dreamed I would have a Scott PAB in my name, & you can't have everything, can you? Think I'll have to fire her up again tomorrow, & maybe I'll buy another gallon of petrol, see if that gauge works. That'll cheer me up a bit.

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Re: My New P & J, a Scott.

Post by stationary stu on Tue Dec 11 2012, 13:03

Nuts it's a shame you've had to let the Jap go but the rate you've been restoring engines, buying spares and paint is not cheap and your wallet has come round and bit you on your ass. Maybe slow down a bit and not buy as many engines so close together (I know it's difficult to let a bargin go) so save up for what you want or buy cheap engines to restore.
Hope the gauge works ok and you get a kick out of putting fuel into the tank, you'd be mind blown if you saw how much I have to put in to fill my 4x4. Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

Stu.

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Re: My New P & J, a Scott.

Post by nutgone on Tue Dec 11 2012, 20:18

Well, the JAP's all but forgotten today. I've been painting Ian's Stuart P5XC, & it's come up a treat. I also went out & got a gallon of petrol, gave it a shot of 2 stroke oil & put it in the tank of the Scott, & hey presto! the fuel gauge works like a charm!

Last night I wrapped a bit of stiff wire strategically round the carb so I can now wire the choke shut for starting, so today I thought I would give it a go.
I wired the choke shut (it's simple, easy & quick to flick it off again), wrapped the strap round the pulley & gave it a tug....

Away she went! Easy as that! Very Happy cheers bounce

this was from cold, & she hasn't been started for a day or two. So it looks like I might have sorted the starting thing, I think it's partly to do with the coked-up ports & a bit to do with technique (there's definitely a knack with these engines) I'm well chuffed to have her working so easily, I just want to try & slow her down a bit now, not sure what to do about that, but I've got a few ideas floating around my head.

Anyway, I've masked up all the brass bits on the fuel tank, it had leaked a bit of petrol around the gauge & taken the paint off, so I've sanded it down, given it a touch of primer & when it's ready I will give it a good going over with the aerosol that Abes gave me with the engine. I've also ordered some petrol-proof lacquer from eBay to go over the top.

So I'm in a much better mood now, I've got a working petrol gauge & I think I've sorted out the starting problems. Very Happy

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Re: My New P & J, a Scott.

Post by stationary stu on Wed Dec 12 2012, 12:35

Great news you've got her sorted, I have to use a bit of wire fastened to the choke when I start my Lister G. Once mine starts I move the wire to it's next position half choke till the engine warms up and then move to wire so the choke is fully open. Makes life a lot easier when starting her up.
Spot on with the fuel gauge it will show others that you respect your engine and take the time to have everything spot on and running right.

Stu.

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Re: My New P & J, a Scott.

Post by nutgone on Wed Dec 12 2012, 22:32

stationary stu wrote:
Spot on with the fuel gauge it will show others that you respect your engine and take the time to have everything spot on and running right.

Stu.

Thanks for that Stu, that's a very nice thing to say, & very encouraging Very Happy .

Anyway, today I finished it off with 3 good coats of the spray paint that Abes supplied with the engine. I had already masked off all the brass bits, I then dragged the engine outside (to avoid over-spraying my dad's Velocettes) & put sheets & rags over the other bits (should've just removed the tank I suppose, but that would be too easy Rolling Eyes ). She looks pretty good....



I started her up & had a play with the throttle settings. I still thought there was too much mechanical noise, but she's running & starting fine since I put my bit of wire round the choke.

But this mechanical noise was getting to me, so I decided to have a little investigation....



Yep, that's right, I've taken it apart again! Rolling Eyes

I'm starting to think I should start a thread in the projects section for this one. It's not exactly a restoration, but it's definitely a project. I'm also thinking about possibly doing a full strip down over the winter & splitting the crank cases. Just need to have a look back through Abes' thread & see how difficult it is to get the flywheel off. I've taken the crank shaft nut off the other end, so if I could get the flywheel off then splitting the crank cases would be the next step.

Well, the Stuart P6 seems to have come to a grinding halt, Ian's P5 is almost done (for now) although there's still stage 2 to come with that one. The Homelite is going to be one day, then wait for a week or two, then another day, then wait for a week or two & so on, so I'll need something to occupy my time.

Oh I dunno, decisions decisions.....

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Re: My New P & J, a Scott.

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