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Modern generator tapered shaft problem.

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Modern generator tapered shaft problem.

Post by Ianhw77k on Sat Dec 08 2012, 21:16

I've been on the lookout for a knackered generator for a while now and last week I found one on ebay in my price range. It's a Wolf (Honda copy) 2600, about 2KW.
The idea was to split the generator from the scrap engine, this was a bit of a job in itself but we managed it. Now the trouble is the shaft on the generator, basically there isn't one. It has a female taper on it with a long bolt going right through the rotor, this bolts onto the tapered shaft of the engine. What I need is a way of putting a V belt pulley on the generator.

If Nutgone isn't too busy maybe he'll put some pictures up soon as I left it over his place. I just wondered if anyone else has done this or if anyone has any suggestions? I feel like I've come so far it would be a shame to let it beat me now. The generator really was meant as a back up for my house but if I could make it look old/hide it a bit then it could become part of an exhibit.

I'm frantically googling the problem but so far I'm hitting a brick wall Sad

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Re: Modern generator tapered shaft problem.

Post by matt86 on Sat Dec 08 2012, 21:58

you say its got a female taper on it ...? if so why cant you get a crank from a honda and engineer a coupling up and fit a pulley to that ... its a bit awkward to understand without pictures ...

I may be able to get a crank from a honda engine for you .

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Re: Modern generator tapered shaft problem.

Post by nutgone on Sat Dec 08 2012, 22:12

If I remember I will take some pics when I go back out for my last fag before bed.

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Re: Modern generator tapered shaft problem.

Post by Ianhw77k on Sat Dec 08 2012, 22:16

I have got the crankshaft from the engine but it would require machining which could be costly. I'll be looking into it but I'm just wondering if there are any easier options out there.

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Re: Modern generator tapered shaft problem.

Post by pauldg on Sat Dec 08 2012, 22:46

Ianhw77k wrote: the shaft on the generator, basically there isn't one. It has a female taper on it with a long bolt going right through the rotor, this bolts onto the tapered shaft of the engine. What I need is a way of putting a V belt pulley on the generator.

That's completely standard on just about every genset that isn't belt driven... There's a bit of info in the generator section of 'another' forum if you dig around for it.

You'll need to make up a shaft (or use a lump of the original one) to give you somewhere to mount a pulley, and you'll need some sort of bearing/end plate. The generator shaft will probably only have a bearing at one end (away from the engine) as it uses the engine crank to support the end of the armature.

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Re: Modern generator tapered shaft problem.

Post by nutgone on Sat Dec 08 2012, 22:48

Also, the crank will leave little more than an inch (at most) of shaft to put a pulley on, even after machining.

I think we're going to have to find a local machine shop & see if they'll do it for cash. With the right tools (IE: a lathe) it wouldn't take long, but you're still only left with a tiny little shaft poking out Shocked
(OK, stop sniggering! Laughing )

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Re: Modern generator tapered shaft problem.

Post by nutgone on Sat Dec 08 2012, 22:50

pauldg wrote:
Ianhw77k wrote: the shaft on the generator, basically there isn't one. It has a female taper on it with a long bolt going right through the rotor, this bolts onto the tapered shaft of the engine. What I need is a way of putting a V belt pulley on the generator.

That's completely standard on just about every genset that isn't belt driven... There's a bit of info in the generator section of 'another' forum if you dig around for it.

You'll need to make up a shaft (or use a lump of the original one) to give you somewhere to mount a pulley, and you'll need some sort of bearing/end plate. The generator shaft will probably only have a bearing at one end (away from the engine) as it uses the engine crank to support the end of the armature.

Paul

Think we'll be OK for a bearing, as this will have one at either end. But we may well need a shaft extension of some kind.

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Re: Modern generator tapered shaft problem.

Post by pauldg on Sat Dec 08 2012, 22:52

If it's got a bearing at each end then job's a good'un... It would be very rare though.

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Re: Modern generator tapered shaft problem.

Post by matt86 on Sat Dec 08 2012, 23:03

pauldg wrote:If it's got a bearing at each end then job's a good'un... It would be very rare though.
get some pictures i think would be best , matt

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Re: Modern generator tapered shaft problem.

Post by matt86 on Sat Dec 08 2012, 23:04

nutgone wrote:
pauldg wrote:
Ianhw77k wrote: the shaft on the generator, basically there isn't one. It has a female taper on it with a long bolt going right through the rotor, this bolts onto the tapered shaft of the engine. What I need is a way of putting a V belt pulley on the generator.

That's completely standard on just about every genset that isn't belt driven... There's a bit of info in the generator section of 'another' forum if you dig around for it.

You'll need to make up a shaft (or use a lump of the original one) to give you somewhere to mount a pulley, and you'll need some sort of bearing/end plate. The generator shaft will probably only have a bearing at one end (away from the engine) as it uses the engine crank to support the end of the armature.

Paul

Think we'll be OK for a bearing, as this will have one at either end. But we may well need a shaft extension of some kind.

Iyou know where i am if you want to try a honda one Wink

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Re: Modern generator tapered shaft problem.

Post by nutgone on Sat Dec 08 2012, 23:07

For the bearing we will be keeping the engine plate & grinding it down to size.

I'll get some pics in the morning, couldn't do it tonight as I need to get tools out & take it apart a bit in order to put it together & show you all what we're on about.

Things will all be made clear in the morning (not too early though). I think it's got to be a machine shop job though.

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Re: Modern generator tapered shaft problem.

Post by pauldg on Sat Dec 08 2012, 23:10

Pretty sure I get what you mean, you're using one side of the crankcase including the bearing from the engine? If that's what you mean, a nice easy solution Smile Not much crank left to play with though - which explains what you've said previously...

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Re: Modern generator tapered shaft problem.

Post by nutgone on Sat Dec 08 2012, 23:20

pauldg wrote:Pretty sure I get what you mean, you're using one side of the crankcase including the bearing from the engine? If that's what you mean, a nice easy solution Smile Not much crank left to play with though - which explains what you've said previously...

That's it. Seemed like the obvious solution, as the engine is scrap, but you're right, not much shaft to play with. Might even be worth getting a thread screw-cut into it & extending the shaft that way. We'll see though.

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Re: Modern generator tapered shaft problem.

Post by Ianhw77k on Sun Dec 09 2012, 10:29

Of course, what I would really like is a cheap and repeatable solution to this problem as I plan on doing this again. I was going to say more but it seems the questions have been answered.
I am now wondering if I shouldn't have just got the Honda copy engine running, as far as I can tell all it needed was one valve collet thing, they're not collets but a sort of keyhole retainer on top of the valve spring and one of them was knackered meaning it had dropped a valve but getting spares for these throw away engine isn't easy and also I didn't want a modern generator unit.

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Re: Modern generator tapered shaft problem.

Post by Ianhw77k on Sun Dec 09 2012, 10:35

matt86 wrote:

Iyou know where i am if you want to try a honda one Wink

Cheers Matt, I may well take you up on that offer, we'll see how it goes. Smile

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Re: Modern generator tapered shaft problem.

Post by pauldg on Sun Dec 09 2012, 10:57

Ianhw77k wrote:Of course, what I would really like is a cheap and repeatable solution to this problem as I plan on doing this again.

It really shouldn't cost much to get a shaft made up, all it would need is a taper and internal thread cutting on one end - adding a keyway to the other end would up the price a fair bit mind, but you could probably get away without one if you choose the type of pulley carefully.

Is the crank cast? if you were lucky and it's pressed together you might just be able to remove the web and then have at least an inch to play with, it would be tight but should be enough to fit a pulley onto anyway.

One possible issue I thought of is lubrication of the bearing. Originally it would have been lubed by the oil in the crankcase and have a seal between the bearing and the generator unit (don't really want oil in there...) Cutting the crankcase apart to make a bearing carrier now means there is no lube present. You could change the bearing to a sealed one, or one you can grease, or maybe fit an oiler to it? The cheapy chinese honda copy engines aren't renowned for using high quality parts at the best of times so I wouldn't bet on the original bearing lasting long without any oil.

I'm not sure I would've got that engine going either, they're more or less reliable for a while but they're not really designed to be 'fixed', as you say they are a disposable part...

Paul

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Re: Modern generator tapered shaft problem.

Post by nutgone on Sun Dec 09 2012, 11:39

Ah ha! I'm way ahead of you there Paul, I have indeed thought about that bearing. I was going to pack it with grease & make up a cover for it. Either a gasket type cover which could be held in place by the pulley (or whatever goes on there) or a metal bearing cover plate held in place with some small screws.

The bearing should be OK with grease, especially the grease I use, it's not too thick. Not too sure how long it'll last with a pulley though, as they're not really designed to be taking those sideways forces, being a direct coupled machine. Or is it a case of "a bearing is a bearing is a bearing" & it'll take the forces regardless???

I guess time will tell.

BTW, I think the crank is one piece forged, so not splittable, but could be machined off with some kind of under-cutting tool to perhaps give a longer shaft, although I think making a new shaft will be the way to go, perhaps give the machine shop the rest of the bits to weigh in as scrap as a gesture, & they'll knock the price down a bit.

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Re: Modern generator tapered shaft problem.

Post by pauldg on Sun Dec 09 2012, 11:49

Think about how much 'sideways' force is applied when the engine fires, it may be rotating but there's still a lateral component. To a point a bearing is a bearing, but there are bearings made of good quality and properly heat treated steel, then there are bearings made of cheese... Still, even good bearings are pretty cheap.

Seeing as it's a forged crank, the amount of machining work involved in undercutting it would probably cost more than just getting a simple new shaft made up anyway.

Paul

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Re: Modern generator tapered shaft problem.

Post by Ianhw77k on Sun Dec 09 2012, 12:08

Again the questions have been answered Rolling Eyes Laughing

I'm sure we can seal the bearing on one side and pack it with grease. I'll pop over in a bit and have another look. Of course, after grinding/cutting a lot of the crankcase away we will also have the problem of mounting it on something but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.
That bearing looks pretty meaty to me, I don't think a bit of lateral force is going to present a problem, especially as it will only get occasional use in power cuts and on the rally field.

If I can find a machine shop that can make up a tapered shaft extension for peanuts then this will be a viable plan for the future, but if this ends up being more trouble than it is worth then I think future projects will look doubtful Sad . I really hope we can make this work and I'm surprised some sort of shaft extension isn't available from somewhere online but all my research so far points to people wanting to use generator engines for things like go-karts and mowers rather than using the generator on another engine.



EDIT: I've just had a guy on smokstack saying he might have some adaptors and I need to send him some pictures. Luckily for me he is also based in the UK Very Happy (Fingers crossed)

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Re: Modern generator tapered shaft problem.

Post by nutgone on Sun Dec 09 2012, 22:15

OK, pictures pictures pictures.... (not got time or inclination for this right now, but here goes)....

Here's the whole thing together....



Bit closer....



Different angle....



Here's the crank, not much meat to play with really....



Here's the genny side of things, just a hole with internal taper....



Bit closer....



That's your lot.

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Re: Modern generator tapered shaft problem.

Post by Capstan on Thu Dec 20 2012, 19:01

Some engines come with a choice of shafts. Parallel or generator taper. The shaft in question has a flange which bolts on to the engine flywheel.
This would require a good quality bearing mounted to the generator frame.
Therein lies the problem. Difficult to solve without precision machining.

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Re: Modern generator tapered shaft problem.

Post by Ianhw77k on Thu Dec 20 2012, 20:47

Capstan wrote:Some engines come with a choice of shafts. Parallel or generator taper. The shaft in question has a flange which bolts on to the engine flywheel.
This would require a good quality bearing mounted to the generator frame.
Therein lies the problem. Difficult to solve without precision machining.

There is no flange on this shaft.
As for bearings, I will be using the crankshaft bearing mounted in the crankcase so that's that problem solved (hopefully). The only problem I can think of is possible end-float in the generator but I'm working on that, if indeed it will be a problem.
All I need is a shaft with a taper and threaded bore at one end. In future I will be looking for a local machine shop to sort me out but for now, I have these little beauties that turned up in the post today. Not sure if they will work or not but I feel I am getting closer.



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Re: Modern generator tapered shaft problem.

Post by nutgone on Thu Dec 20 2012, 23:17

Hmm, OK. Did I miss something? Why have they got bearings on them?

Top one looks about right, but may need a bit chopping off. Bring them over when you get a chance.

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Re: Modern generator tapered shaft problem.

Post by Ianhw77k on Thu Dec 20 2012, 23:26

They just came with bearings, you never know, they might even fit the crankcase, they look better than the one in there already. Also, the threads may be different, in which case we will need some UNF studding.

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Re: Modern generator tapered shaft problem.

Post by stationary stu on Fri Dec 21 2012, 12:23

I hope this solves your problem, sounds like your nearly there with it.

Stu.

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