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New member and lister D for restoration

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Re: New member and lister D for restoration

Post by Smitty on Mon Feb 11 2013, 17:13

Just a few pics while I'm at it,

A few unfortunates,




And some scenery from the last trip.





And my truck.


The truck pic is last year at a mine in the Yukon territory, unloading a screw for a a slush pump that would need approximately 1000 Lister "D"'s to operate Shocked

That's it for the pics, as they tend to get of topic, but it gives you an idea as to what I do for a livin.

Im off for a tea, regards all and Cheers, John.


Last edited by Smitty on Mon Feb 11 2013, 17:23; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Edit.)

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Re: New member and lister D for restoration

Post by blackvanman on Mon Feb 11 2013, 19:06

Smitty wrote:
blackvanman wrote:What's your call sign John? Wink

If you mean for the truck radio, I do not use one, a few still do, but that's fast dissapearing as the radios are abused and normal conversation is hard to do anymore, so people tend to not talk much anymore except when needed.

It used to be "Trail boss" and before that, "CJ" (as in "Crazy John" 'cause I was.)
I took risks and jobs no-one would take for the danger they presented, and of course the money Very Happy
(Think Ice roads and mining, (driving on roads most normal people warn their kids not to go on), but in the remote North not like the sensationalist stuff on the Telly.)

Cheers, John.
ah ok, I was looking at the antenna mast in the photo's and thought you may be a ham Very Happy

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What I have been up to

Post by biomed32uk on Mon Feb 11 2013, 20:26

Great pics of the crankshaft bearing assy, not touched mine yet as I have enough to do and it may as well stay in one piece for a while yet.

The snow pics are also great, last time I saw snow that here must have been some 25years ago, if not more. So now we know you are a real ice road trucker Johm, thats one serious job in conditions like that.

The company I work for has an office in Andover, MA and think its snowing there too.

Glad you got the pully off, thats a good start, how you going to attack that gib key, it looks no more crudded and rusty than mine did, and that plate pulled it out a treat, but it did have a good feed of freeing oil. Sure you know but I dont go for belting them off, snap that head off and in becomes a real pain in the rear.

I started on my foot at the weekend, got it drilled through, and a hole in the base drilled and tapped. Decided to get a long screw and go right the way through the foot with it, just glances through the edge of the mounting hole but i can still clear a 10mm bolt through it to fix it down. Thats put it in the stongest part of the base casting as well, just got to make a sink for the head, completely clean the faces, grind the edges off slightly so I can flush the join in, put a spread of JB weld in there and it should be a reasonable repair that will certainly look the part.

Had to order a tap for the head stud threads so can get on with that soon.

Warm the workshop, keep out of that snow and do some listering, good luck with the key and flywhee Very Happy Very Happy l, let us know. I'm a ham by the way - G0MJA - but dont do much these days.

Greetings from the Essex sunshine coast...... Wink Geoff

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Re: New member and lister D for restoration

Post by Smitty on Mon Feb 11 2013, 23:30

blackvanman wrote:
Smitty wrote:
blackvanman wrote:What's your call sign John? Wink

If you mean for the truck radio, I do not use one, a few still do, but that's fast dissapearing as the radios are abused and normal conversation is hard to do anymore, so people tend to not talk much anymore except when needed.

It used to be "Trail boss" and before that, "CJ" (as in "Crazy John" 'cause I was.)
I took risks and jobs no-one would take for the danger they presented, and of course the money Very Happy
(Think Ice roads and mining, (driving on roads most normal people warn their kids not to go on), but in the remote North not like the sensationalist stuff on the Telly.)

Cheers, John.
ah ok, I was looking at the antenna mast in the photo's and thought you may be a ham Very Happy

Oh I'm a ham alright, but not the radio kind lol
These masts are the Northern American standard for TV masts Biomed. Every household had at least one and some two.

Just recently the move is on for digital service and the regular (Once the most advanced new invention) TV waves will probably disappear.

I played with radios a long time ago as my uncle gave me two sets that were home made by him.
It is what got me into electronics, and today I benefit from it in Radio controlled aircraft and repair of CB radios, although the latter has pretty much stopped.

Regards, John.


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Re: New member and lister D for restoration

Post by Smitty on Mon Feb 11 2013, 23:33

Working on turning up a Gib key removal tool, but doing it on a very small lathe, so it will take a bit more time today and if I am lucky, it will get the job done today also.

John.


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the foot

Post by biomed32uk on Tue Feb 12 2013, 17:31

Cool, wish we had aerial towers like that here, could get some ham aerials up without the other half moaning Very Happy

I have fixed the foot back on, such a result finding it in the hopper Very Happy , its gone back really well and once the excess JB Weld is smoothed in I hope its an invisible mend, ignore the caphead screw in the first photo, just used as a hold to see the effect. The blocks not hangng in mid air either, over the edge of the bench with me twisting over it to take the pic.




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Re: New member and lister D for restoration

Post by stationary stu on Tue Feb 12 2013, 17:38

Great pics John, thanks for posting them. Now that's somewhere I could live. Very Happy Very Happy

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Re: New member and lister D for restoration

Post by stationary stu on Tue Feb 12 2013, 17:39

Your repair looks good, just a little tidy up and you'd never know.

Stu.

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Re: New member and lister D for restoration

Post by nutgone on Tue Feb 12 2013, 18:43

Biomed, watch the dust from that JB Weld if you sand it off. It's the same as with QuickSteel putty, I always use the Dremmel to sand off after drying, but that dust will really sting the eyes if it gets in them, it's a proper irritant, makes them sting for ages & keeps you awake at night, horrible stuff. (Very useful though).

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JB Weld

Post by biomed32uk on Tue Feb 12 2013, 19:49

Yes, its going to be smoothed off, I took the edges of the break off on each piece to form a channel for the JB and to avoid a step, so cheers Nutgone, I shall remember that and appreciate the tip.

Done enough damage to me, using a wire wheel in the angle grinder which is vicious, it certainly rips the rust off in double quick time. I had the eye protection on but not the gloves, it caught, bounced back and right into the side of my hand at the base of the thumb, I can verify that it removes skin just as effectively Crying or Very sad

I will fill the head hole with some bodyfiller, never know it may have to come out sometime, smoothed in along with the rest of the pits in the casting and then some high build primer as base it should look good.

I've drilled the stud out, waiting for the tap now. Still things are now starting to get better (including me) Very Happy

Names Geoff BTW, I use biomed as I am a biomedical electronics engineer, I work for a major medical eqpt manufacturer as the day job.

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Re: New member and lister D for restoration

Post by Smitty on Wed Feb 13 2013, 04:09

stationary stu wrote:Great pics John, thanks for posting them. Now that's somewhere I could live. Very Happy Very Happy

Stu.

Bring it on Stu, I'll get you situated lol, John.

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Re: New member and lister D for restoration

Post by Smitty on Wed Feb 13 2013, 04:21

Wonderful result Biogeoff lol.

Just Joshin,

I tried once to use JB weld, but had no luck, but I must admit that I was in a rush and didn't wait long to try to work with it, and then a friend showed up with the same part as a gift.

By the comments here and other posts, I must try it again and see for myself.

As a machinist welder jack of all trades and lover, it just doesn't sit right to use the stuff.
Call it old fashioned but I'm still stuck believing it's glue, (I know better, but that's the ingrained refusal I learned to excersise as a Dutchman lol.)

No harm meant for your good job on it (excellent actually!), and I really hope you can get away with it, as that would be a perfect way to save the day.
Just to think of a block scrapped for a minor flesh wound gives me the shivers!!!

Regards, John.

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Re: New member and lister D for restoration

Post by Smitty on Wed Feb 13 2013, 05:29

Right...,

If no other comments, I'll move to the next order of business.

I did'nt get anywhere with the Gib key tool I attempted to make, as the OD is too small and the bolts that would push to react against the flywheel boss would have their heads interfere with the width of the shaft.

It can still serve and do the job with allan screws, but it is on the back burner for now as my good friend the machinist came to have a look and said for me to go to the shop tomorrow and make a proper one and be done with it.
He has a 3" lump of round, and he has a shaper that will do the key clearance cut in a jiffy.
He also has a few pullers similar to the one I have so he may well have the solution laying right on the work bench!
A friend in need is a friend indeed and I will see what's up tomorrow.

In the mean time I could not hold my anxiety anymore bounce and took the main shaft assembly out and had a look.

Lo and behold, bits of rust on the inside crank case? Hmmmm Suspect Not really but it does look messy Laughing
Rust on the lower skirt of the barrel/cylinder? Arrrrggghhhh!!! NO SPLASH SPIKE!!!! affraid

How long since it went for a dive?, I thought the bearing assy looked a bit dry and the spike is nowhere to be found, it is not in the bottom!
The split pin that holds the spike in is in place so I will remove it to see if the butt of the spike is in the hole.
If not, then it must have been removed and thus not splashing oil and wear the bearings.
Makes sense.

How much wear and tear since? (Don't know Jack!)
Damage anywhere? (Not that I can see.)
Will she live?? Sad (Of course, don't be silly!)

Here are some pics to show you what I mean, but I am not worried too much, as this type of setup can probably handle the abuse better than I think.
The gears look funny and the stuff on them makes it look like a lot of wear but it's not, they're fine so I will assume that the rest of it is too.
Here goes,



You can see the spike is missing, and it is probably in the murky leftovers at the bottom. (it wasn't)


In retrospect, everything looks pretty clean after all, and my worries were only the same reaction one gets when someone hits your car with a sledge hammer and then realising it's his!

Good, one more and that's it then.



Cleaner then I thought it would be, the last and maybe only rebuild was done some 30 years ago I think the man said, so if this is what it looks like with about four years or so since it ran (without a spike? No ), I think I did well for a first time engine, and it should'nt give me too bad of a time.

Cheers, John.













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you're winning

Post by biomed32uk on Wed Feb 13 2013, 09:56

John, looks like you are winning and things are moving apart. Sure once it's cleaned out of all the muck it'll look great. How did the water get down there, through the rockers ?.

I am amaazed with mine nothing got down there, considering it looks to have have been left exposed.

I am fully with you on the glue front, but these modern epoxys are good, I think the screw alone would have been strong enough, the break kind of locked back together due to the jagged nature of it, so the JB is acting more of a filler to flush the crack. Would love to have welded it but my mate only gave a me a 60% chance of success, and I really want to keep the crankcase, thats the heart of the engine kind of. It's as near to a safe engineering repair as I think it can be

Nothing wrong with asking a friend for help, hopefully he may have a ready made puller Very Happy , if not definately 3" bar min needed as you say to stop heads fouling and have some meat in it.

Tapping the head for me next.

Hope all goes well.

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Re: New member and lister D for restoration

Post by stationary stu on Wed Feb 13 2013, 12:32

You sure made some progress John and glad it's not all bad news when you have it stripped.

Stu.

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Re: New member and lister D for restoration

Post by Smitty on Wed Feb 13 2013, 18:05

stationary stu wrote:You sure made some progress John and glad it's not all bad news when you have it stripped.

Stu.

No I think it is all fine Stu,

Aeroplanes flew missions over Holland and Germany with a lot more damage and parts missing than my little lister has, and IT doesn't have to fly! (And in gratitude I deeply honour the men that flew those missions and especially the ones that gave all there was Sad as they are most likely the reason I am here today.)

I do wonder about the spike though, what went on there??

After dragging a magnet through the bottom layer of crud (also surprisingly clean,) I came up with a few very small pieces of what looked like crushed metal or remnants of what could have been the spike (Cast I believe), but not enough to ident the debris for sure.
There were no serial numbers on the little bits Rolling Eyes and IMHO there wasn't enough of them to constitute a spike, pure elementary my dear Watson!

Is it made of cast, steel or brass?

It sticks in my craw (the missing spike), as I have no reasonable answer for the mystery other than possible neglect from the owner that ran it without inspecting it on a regular basis, or it could well have happened on the last run who knows?
I'll have to do a closer inspection of all parts to see if any damage might clear up my questions.

I was hoping to not have to get into the dissassembly of the whole engine, but at this point I do not want to make the mistake of fixing something that's going to be fixed a while later again because of MY neglect.

Those are the pleasures of tinkering Laughing .

Anyway..., the shaft assembly will go under the knife today I hope, and then at least I'll have a known quantity.

As for your question of water bypassing or dribbling down.., There was only a smidgen of snot in the bottom, and I tend to think that that was because of temperature changes and accumulated condensation rather than a leak, and could explain the visible although very slight evidence of rust dust. ( It sat idle in a shop for about four years.)

The intake pushrod lobe (visible in one of the pics) does seem to have a tad of wear on it, but could that possibly be 86 years worth of service wear?

The block on the flywheel side has had a welding repair which partly intersects with the hopper floor on the block proper and could possibly represent a leak.
I will do some tests and try to determine if indeed there is a breach there, although I doubt it as the job was well done as far as integrity goes.

Now that I have most of the information together on my little Lister, I am getting more anxious to hear the old girl grumble!
Does anyone have a spike I could see a picture of? I could probably make one myself, but I would like to see what shape it has so I can dupicate that, I don't think they are available as replacements.

Well..., back to trying to clear my head as it feels like meatloaf after last night's binge with my long lost machinist mate.
I am going to have you believe I am a fall down drunk yet Hic! drunken (Och Lad.., dinna pick me up.., I'll just fall duin again!)

Regards, John.


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Re: New member and lister D for restoration

Post by blackvanman on Wed Feb 13 2013, 18:09

biomed32uk wrote:Done enough damage to me, using a wire wheel in the angle grinder which is vicious, it certainly rips the rust off in double quick time. I had the eye protection on but not the gloves, it caught, bounced back and right into the side of my hand at the base of the thumb, I can verify that it removes skin just as effectively Crying or Very sad
yep have the exact same scar on my left had at the base of my thumb Very Happy and a matching one on my right from burning with the mig torch 5 min later Very Happy

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Re: New member and lister D for restoration

Post by Smitty on Wed Feb 13 2013, 19:37

biomed32uk wrote:John, looks like you are winning and things are moving apart. Sure once it's cleaned out of all the muck it'll look great. How did the water get down there, through the rockers ?.

I am amaazed with mine nothing got down there, considering it looks to have have been left exposed.

I am fully with you on the glue front, but these modern epoxys are good, I think the screw alone would have been strong enough, the break kind of locked back together due to the jagged nature of it, so the JB is acting more of a filler to flush the crack. Would love to have welded it but my mate only gave a me a 60% chance of success, and I really want to keep the crankcase, thats the heart of the engine kind of. It's as near to a safe engineering repair as I think it can be

Nothing wrong with asking a friend for help, hopefully he may have a ready made puller Very Happy , if not definately 3" bar min needed as you say to stop heads fouling and have some meat in it.

Tapping the head for me next.

Hope all goes well.

Hello Geoff,

You have a bigger job ahead than I, with all the crud and growth on it.

The foot looks excellent and I'm thinking that it would not be noticeable after paint like you say too. Nice job!
The thing to remember though I think, is that the lag bolt or bolt and nut which are going to hold the foot to the wood as it were, will be bigger than the allen screw that fixed the foot, and thus may put a good strain on that screw if it is not supported square and flat.
The bigger stick syndrome Wink

I am sure that you know that, but I like to mother and guide, it's part of my stubborn heritage Laughing
Good engineering what you did! and it looks very professional, It will last.

The head drilling is something I will watch and follow as I may be next to do that job.
I wish you well with it as I would be just as exited to hear yours run as well as mine Very Happy

I am trying to come up with all the reasons as to why I should not take the head off mine, but I know myself..., it has to be done or I'll always wonder about the valve faces and general shape if I don't Rolling Eyes

EXCUSES;
-I would have to wait for a gasket or two as I have to import them and that takes time.
-I don't like paper gaskets for compression seals, but will have to if the head comes off.
-Cuts into beer time.

Right,
I'll order the coppers (one for a spare) from Stationary when I'm done with the forum, and maybe I can just head off the paper problem in time.
Head removal should give me a good view from topside into where the repair was done, so I can ascertain myself of the integrity of it on the inside.
And since you made me think on water leaking through the rockers.., I can only see that water could splash over from filling it too high in the hopper as the repair is on the block proper and more likely would leak from there than not.
And secondly I do not believe there's anything wrong with the hopper as for cracks or damage where water could get into the rocker half.

I'm hoping that it is all good. And if not I may be trying the JB weld method or practice drilling studs some more myself Laughing

I am excited again now as I wanted to see the condition of the valves and guides anyway, it is a must do really.
And after knowing that the spike was missing who knows what other abominations are hidden under those 5 studs?

With how the day job goes for me it will just take a bit longer but that's how it is.

Thanks for the reply, Regards, John.









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Re: New member and lister D for restoration

Post by Foden on Wed Feb 13 2013, 19:59

John the spike (or Oil Dipper) on the early engines is a lot shorter than the post 1930 ones, I would guess that they suffered lubrication problems as a longer dipper was fitted and also a splash plate to prevent overlubrication of the cylinder. The dipper is just a thin flat blade tapered at the end, the first engines had them as part of the con rod and the next batch were retained by a split pin and the later ones screwed in and also entered the big end bearing to locate it in the con rod. I could take a pic for you of my 1930 engine which has the short dipper but I can see that at present you have a lot more work ahead of you before you reach that stage so I wont rush out in the snow and take them now! Laughing

Pete.

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Re: New member and lister D for restoration

Post by Smitty on Wed Feb 13 2013, 20:56

Foden wrote:John the spike (or Oil Dipper) on the early engines is a lot shorter than the post 1930 ones, I would guess that they suffered lubrication problems as a longer dipper was fitted and also a splash plate to prevent overlubrication of the cylinder. The dipper is just a thin flat blade tapered at the end, the first engines had them as part of the con rod and the next batch were retained by a split pin and the later ones screwed in and also entered the big end bearing to locate it in the con rod. I could take a pic for you of my 1930 engine which has the short dipper but I can see that at present you have a lot more work ahead of you before you reach that stage so I wont rush out in the snow and take them now! Laughing

Pete.
Pete,

You may have the answer to my problem. The engine is a May/1927 issue as far as I can extrapolate, and a Spec.11D-2, @ 1000 Rpm.
Most likely a Genset combo engine.

My spike is the one retained with the split pin, and the only thing I am not sure of is the length of the spike which I can probably still decern by visual and physical testing.
The shape is almost self explanatory but it will need some tinkering to get the oil to splash just so.

I realise that your particular spike may not be the one for my engine, but if you could indeed produce a pic of yours I may be ahead of the game.
I will almost certainly make mine out of brass, as a failure would tend to do less particle damage and if brass will suffer the force of impact to the oil.

In any case, please do send the pic/pics at your leasure, and I'll look forward to viewing it/them.

Thank you for your kind reply,

Regards, John.








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Re: New member and lister D for restoration

Post by Smitty on Wed Feb 13 2013, 23:07

I just had to give the Gib key one more shot before taking it to my friends shop for butchering.

It took a few good blows and it came loose.
I had always thought that hammers, wedges and levers were invented because they work, and I am happy to say that they did just that.
I applied a bit of heat to the hub with a propane torch, merely just to have the flywheel work a bit, but it didn't even scorch the paint, I then put one of the chrome moly spacers (think of a post drill drift wedge) in between the boss and the gib key head and hammered that into place.
Then I clamped the drift down with a "C" clamp so it wouldn't become a projectile when angered, and I gave it a few good blows with the bigger Machinist's hammer, and thought I felt it give.

A few more tries and Voila.., it had moved a mil or so ( In faith I had marked the shaft against movement of the key.)
It was harder to slide the rest of it out and that alone took 15 minutes, but it's done!
Cleaned her up, and papered the shaft, beauty!

Here is a pic of it cleaned off,



As if you all have never seen this before lol, but hey.., I'm a happy camper!

Next is to weasle the flywheel off, and I assume that I can either bounce that or tap it with a dead blow hammer, either way, now there's nothing to slow me down.

I can at least get to the bearings soon and get that part squared away, and that was the whole reason I never wanted to start it up and run it.

I did order the head and main gasket set from Stationary Engine and am hoping they will be here by the time I get back from my next trip, which should start soon.
I will probably get back at it now that I do not have to go to the shop to work on the Gib key.

Next is the "head off" section of my journey to proper parenting for old timers, you can take that two ways lol.

I'll keep you posted,
John.



Last edited by Smitty on Thu Feb 14 2013, 05:05; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Correction.)

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Re: New member and lister D for restoration

Post by Smitty on Thu Feb 14 2013, 04:42

Looks like I'm all by my lonesome tonight, I suppose it's the time zone difference of maybe 5-6 hours?

Anyway, I did get back at it in a rare spurt of impatience and lobbed off its head! affraid



It came along without complaining and made it easy for me, it's full off debris from sitting I suppose, sawdust, critter hair, bug parts and a few pieces of tree.
No nuts or any other food.

No spike parts either, but upon taking the remnant spike part out of the big end mounting hole, I found a piece of drilled ready rod. (threaded 3/16th el cheapo stuff.)
It broke where it was drilled and showed wear in such a way that I believe it was loose in the first place and slowly beat itself silly over time and finally gave up the ghost. Neutral Some mothers do 'ave em! I can't figure how someone would take a chance to ruin a good engine with crap for a fix!

The hole is ok, and I'll make up a new splasher that fits properly and hope I do it right. In any case I will always double and triple check my work, it's the only way you get to see progress untill things tick like a clock.


Now that I have had a boo and saw what's up inside the cylinder I am truly happy, it is as clean as can be other than the carbon.
The piston is the raised head type and I thought I understood that for the year that was not an option, but the rings are very good and loose, and they're the big ones, also the way it came I believe, every thing in the cylinder group looks wonderfully well and proper.




It also does have the deep recessed chamber and the shrouded intake valve so that seems correct.
The push rods are straight but have a small bit of damage. On the exhaust one there is metal to metal damage like a small crease, most likely from eating spike parts.
After dressing that up it should be serviceable again.



The flywheel was given a try again but then I wanted to get inside the engine and so ended up cutting the dissassembly of the bearing group short.
I'll get it removed in daytime and hope I do not get called in to work Very Happy

Oh, The water jacket weld repair looks to be watertight and solid, it is a crack right under the cylinder deck on the flywheel side, and the repair consists of a fish plate welded over the initial weld on the crack. A good repair I think, but ungainly.
In the future I will probably remove that plate and repair it properly with lots of heat relief, so I can have a better looking or maybe unnoticeable fix.
But I want to have it running first, I can see the light at the end of the tunnel Laughing I want to HEAR it!

All in all I think things look peachy, I think I bought a beauty and I am having the time of my life.
I think I am thoroughly Listerized! Cool

Cheers all, John.






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Re: New member and lister D for restoration

Post by stationary stu on Thu Feb 14 2013, 13:30

All good news John, apart from the oil spike. I think you should be able to make one up without to much of a problem. You just need to clean it all up now and wait for the new gaskets.

Stu.

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Engines are just like Pringles .... one is never enough.  Very Happy                                        I used to love tractors all I would ever think/talk about. Then one day out of the blue I went on to statinary engines, So you could say I'm an extractor fan.

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Re: New member and lister D for restoration

Post by Smitty on Thu Feb 14 2013, 14:20

Thank you stu,

Now I have to apologise and I feel deeply embarassed to realize I have been hijacking Biomeds thread for all these pages!!!!!

I got to looking for his thread and couldn't find it, so then just now realized that the thread names can easily be misleading (eventhough I've created my own myself!!!! and ended up nestling in on someone elses thread!!!! AArrrrggghhh!!! Mad Embarassed

To Biomed....,

Geoff, I am profoundly sorry that I was too filled with my own rebuild to notice that this happend,

You have my apology for hogging your thread Embarassed .


I'll move on back to my original thread called "FIRST LISTER "D" AND EVERYTHING ELSE IN OLD ENGINES.

Thanks for your understanding,
Regards, John.

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It OK

Post by biomed32uk on Thu Feb 14 2013, 20:39

john,

Looks like you have been busy with lots of success, all looks good, just a clean up needed.

Bet you will have that running before mine, and you are more than welcome for my thread, made it easy to find and i am keen to know how you go every step, as i am still learning Lister's.

I will follow you on your one now.

Geoff

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Re: New member and lister D for restoration

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