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Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by 110samec on Mon Feb 25 2013, 18:00

I'm with you nuts on the running without water in an engine, purely because I've worked on marine diesels where its never done, the only time we've done it was a few seconds before plugging the hose pipe into the water inlet on a Yanmar 3 cylinder. Why put all that good effort into fixing it and then risking a bit of damage to the engine? I know you can theoretically run an engine dry but I'd rather not risk it, not certainly for longer than a few seconds. I don't have the experience of a lot of the people on these forums but thats just my own humble opinion

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by nutgone on Mon Feb 25 2013, 18:43

110samec wrote:I'm with you nuts on the running without water in an engine, purely because I've worked on marine diesels where its never done, the only time we've done it was a few seconds before plugging the hose pipe into the water inlet on a Yanmar 3 cylinder. Why put all that good effort into fixing it and then risking a bit of damage to the engine? I know you can theoretically run an engine dry but I'd rather not risk it, not certainly for longer than a few seconds. I don't have the experience of a lot of the people on these forums but thats just my own humble opinion

Cheers for that.

I should know better really, it's a very contentious issue on engine forums, bit like the oil debate, paint colour debate, painted flywheel rims debate, brass tank straps debate, etc etc etc. Sometimes these things are best left alone, trouble is I'm like a dog with a bone sometimes, me & Stu love it really though Very Happy (I like Stu, he's a good bloke. Sometimes I think if it wasn't for our little debates I could go days without any other human conversation)

Now back to colours.

Steve W & Andrew1971: Thanks for your input. I don't really have a colour to match up though, as I don't actually like the colour that's on this engine right now.

Also, it's really strange that red was mentioned. I had thought I might just say "Sod it!" & go for a nice dark maroon (like the plum colour you sometimes see on some Ruston Hornsby engines), but they tend to get very tatty very quick, the reds. These were black originally, but that's another colour that seems to show up any imperfection.

I'm leaning towards the Light Bronze Green, although I might go for this colour, which is sold by a company as BMC green, although I think it's a little light for that....



Maybe this could be the happy medium I'm looking for? It's sold by a company called ESM Parts & is listed as BMC Engine Green. Not a bad price too, & comes in proper size 250ml tins, not these huge 1 litre ones, which are miles too big for stationary engine work.

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by 110samec on Mon Feb 25 2013, 19:11

That green would suit it well Wink I was thinking it might look good in the duck egg blue you see on old landrover engines but that green would look good on it especially against the brass on the radiator

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by Andrew1971 on Mon Feb 25 2013, 20:38

Yes Nutgone go for the green that's on the morris engine she will look good in that Very Happy Very Happy
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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by Ianhw77k on Mon Feb 25 2013, 21:04

Bright yellow, it just has to be! Wink

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by nutgone on Mon Feb 25 2013, 22:04

Ianhw77k wrote:Bright yellow, it just has to be! Wink

Oh god! Who rattled your cage?!! Laughing

Yes, I was thinking about that Morris engine green, but I was also considering the slightly lighter Light Bronze Green.
Trouble is, if I go much lighter I think I will lose the effect of the polished brass. scratch scratch scratch

Right, that's it! I'm ordering the Morris Engine stuff!

EDIT:
Done it! It actually works out quite expensive, when you add shipping & VAT, but at least I know it's a proper engine enamel, & I think it's heat resistant.

There should be enough to do both the Stuart Turner & the Kohler with this tin. Besides, I'm fed up with always having to get huge great big 1 litre tins of paint for the engines. I don't generally like painting them all the same colour when I intend to rally them together, & although I can get a litre of the Bradite Fastrac ME53 enamel (which is great paint, meant for tractors & available in all colours) for around just £12, it'll probably just end up with the majority of it left over, drying up in the tin & going to waste. & it wouldn't be the same colour as this stuff.

That's that justified. Very Happy

(BTW, it ended up just over a tenner, including VAT & P&P)

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by nutgone on Mon Feb 25 2013, 22:43

Anyway, look who's been a busy boy this evening....







The only bits left are the sump, crank case & cylinder head....



I'm not going too mad. I just gave everything a rub down with some P80 abrasive paper then gave it all a quick coat of thinned down red oxide (I thinned it partly as it's so cold, partly as I prefer the first primer coat to be a "wash coat" & partly because it was getting a bit thick anyway). I will probably give it another primer coat, then let it go off nice & hard (that Teamac primer does go off quite hard) before giving it a quick rub down with a fine abrasive sponge pad, then probably 2 top coats with the Morris Engine Green (possibly with a quick rub down between top coats, but it might not be necessary).

Some of the castings are a bit rough, but I'm happy to let that show through a bit, I don't want to go over the top on this one. I will pick out the cooling fan in red (post office red), & the radiator core, starting handle & possibly some of the governor parts will be black. I might even paint the oil filler cap black & pick out the lettering in red on it, but that might be a bit OTT, not sure yet (I never was too good at picking out lettering anyway).

I can't seem to get the magneto shelf off the side of the block. It has 4 screws, which I have removed, but there also appears to be 2 brass pins holding it on & it refuses to budge. I don't want to risk breaking it, so I might just have to leave that on & work round it.

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by nutgone on Mon Feb 25 2013, 23:02

As far as trolley design goes, my plan is to make a slightly lower trolley to mount this engine on. I will be using modern industrial caster wheels on it, but I will be covering them up with a mock-up of a permanent concrete engine bed, as I believe these engines would have originally been mounted in permanent situations, like in a plant room or engine shed.

It means I can make a simple flat bed trolley, then make up some boards to go on the sides (covering the ugly modern wheels) with either a concrete effect from something like papier-máché or flexible floor screed, or with real tiles on them (perhaps a black & white check tile pattern made from simple square wall tiles).

I have an idea in my head, & hope to be able to make it into a reality without too much expense. Any ideas on how I could achieve this are welcome.

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by steve w on Tue Feb 26 2013, 06:15

seeing that engine brings back a few memories - i have restored a few early moggys one a 45 split screen convertable a nut and bolt re-build that took 18 yrs,

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by stationary stu on Tue Feb 26 2013, 13:16

OK I'm not happy, nuts has choosen his colour and I didn't have a chance to stick my oar in. Laughing Laughing Laughing

There is a paint chart on the forum which might help, funny it says Stuart Turner is mid bronze green. Laughing Laughing Laughing Personally I'd go for a dark shade to show off the brass/copper.

http://www.stationaryengineforum.net/t3119-list-of-paint-codes

Stu.

PS I've a tin of Stuart paint I got with a Stuart engine, it came from a Stuart dealer would you like me to check it and see if there's a code on it?

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by nutgone on Tue Feb 26 2013, 14:24

Have a look by all means Stu, I would be very interested to know what the code is. But I believe even Stuart Turner didn't stick to one colour. It seems different colours were used at different times & on different type units (IE, different on marine than on industrial units).

I think you know the colour I mean though, pretty much the light bronze green I was on about. But, like you say, the lighter colours don't show the brass as well, so I've gone for a slightly darker shade.

This paint colour business is a right PITA! It practically took up my whole day yesterday (well, all my spare time at least) even when I was walking the dogs all I thought about was "should I go light or mid bronze green?". Which is why I just went for the Morris Engine Green from ESM Parts (even though I'm told it is not the correct Morris Engine Green, I liked the colour, it looks like a good compromise between mid & light bronze green).

Looking at the engine, I reckon it might well have been painted in the light bronze green. It has been left outside to weather for quite some time, so it's difficult to tell for sure, but the more I look at it the more I am convinced.

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by Andrew1971 on Tue Feb 26 2013, 16:15

Nutgone what you on i want some lol! lol!
Did you get bored !! You are really going on quick with this engine end of march it will be done Smile Smile
But dont rush it it's all in the detail's that will make it good+reliable Very Happy
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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by Ianhw77k on Tue Feb 26 2013, 17:18

I still think bright yellow with red detail would have looked better.

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by Andrew1971 on Tue Feb 26 2013, 19:18

Or pink with yellow spot's lol! lol!

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by nutgone on Tue Feb 26 2013, 19:21

Well I gave the red-oxide primed parts a quick rub down with an abrasive sponge pad & gave them a 2nd coat. I have also started to sand down the main engine block, sump & head all as one bit (I've done one side, just come in for dinner, will turn it round later, sand the other side & see if I can get a coat of primer on it, then I can 2nd coat that tomorrow ready for the paint to arrive in a day or two).

Also, remember these....



Well it seems someone has been telling porkies on their eBay listings. These are supposed to be 32mm diameter, when in actual fact they are 35mm, so they don't fit!

Well, I'm buggered if I'm posting the damn things back, so out came the sharpest Stanley knife & I got on with re-shaping them (don't worry, I also had some silicone instant gasket arrive today as well, which will help to seal these).
I have shaped them with the knife & gone over them with a rasp & some P80 sand paper & they now go into the holes in the engine block & bottom of the rad quite nicely (in fact I expect they will seal without the silicone, but I will use it anyway, as there's no way I will ever use it for a gasket, can't stand the stuff really, but it is good for sealing against water).

These bungs take copper 22m pipe as a nice tight fit in the internal holes, which I have plenty of. So I will make up a 22m copper bottom pipe, with a drain tap in it at the lowest point (instead of an elbow coming out of the block I will use a reducing T & put a normal central heating type drain valve in there). Once covered in plenty of paint it shouldn't look too bad. I might even make up some metal plates to go over the bungs, shaped like flanges they can use the threaded holes/studs already there & will not only hold the bungs in place, but will serve to hide them as well. (I doubt this side will be on show anyway, but I want it to look reasonable at the very least).

Detail is one of those things I have time for. Take this for example....



Can you guess what it is yet??? (best Rolf Harris voice for that one Laughing )....



No??? Here it is after I finished what I was doing with it.





That's the original radiator cap. It's made from Bakelite with a brass insert. The Bakelite had gone brittle around the very edge & had started to crumble away. There was also a chunk out of it on top, where the indents are for the finger tightening.
I broke all the loose stuff off & got back to a sound base. The brass insert was coming loose as well, so I have built up the missing Bakelite in several layers with J.B. Weld (2 part epoxy metal glue). It's taken a few layers, & for the final layer I made the card inserts you see above.

Once the glue had gone off hard I sanded it back to shape & gave the whole thing a coat of black fire grate polish.

The devil's in the detail. Very Happy

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by nutgone on Tue Feb 26 2013, 19:32

Andrew1971 wrote:Or pink with yellow spot's lol! lol!

We do have a full tin of orange (RAL 2002 colour), it's pretty much identical to the orange that Calor use on their propane cylinders. But we want to use that on the boy's Lister D, as it came out of a cement mixer (& the cement mixer on Bob The Builder is orange). We bought it by mistake (another case of colours looking darker on colour charts than they are in real life, & that was a proper colour chart, not an online one! Rolling Eyes ) & it had passed my mind to use it, but I really don't think this engine would look good in orange, or yellow for that matter (yellow would make it look like a Catepillar or JCB engine, or like my dad's old John Deere boat engine).

Nope, I think this green will look lovely.

(although I'm wondering if I shouldn't have gone for the light bronze green now Rolling Eyes )

NO! The paint is ordered & has been dispatched. I am sticking with it! Neutral

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by nutgone on Tue Feb 26 2013, 23:22

Been busy again this evening. I managed to prep & prime the main engine. But during my prep work I found the 2 core plugs which back onto the water jacket had rusted through (probably better that I find out now)....



So I pulled them out after checking the manual/parts list & finding out they were 1" cup type plugs & ordering 2 new ones from eBay.

Anyway, on with the priming....



I also gave the flywheel a coat of Kurust, as there was no paint on it. I will go over that with red oxide primer when it's dry....



Now, here's one of those plumbing bungs I've hacked about....



I got some old plate steel & cut myself a flange shaped piece, then put it together how I want it to go....





I think, with plenty of the white silicone gasket stuff, & some decent plumbing work (IE: a good pipe run with no strain on the end joints) it should seal fine & work quite well. At least until I can get something more permanent made up.

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by stationary stu on Wed Feb 27 2013, 12:45

You've done some good work with the time going into the detail well done mate I don't think you'll have much of a problem with the joints. Only thing is the water system under pressure when it's running or not just wondering if the cap has a relief valve in it.

Stu.

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by Andrew1971 on Wed Feb 27 2013, 13:18

Does she have a water pump did not notice one. If not i dont think it will be pressurized just use convection hot water rising being cooled by fan cold water sink's to the bottom.
C'mon nut's tell's who's right !! lol! lol!
Many Thanks
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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by nutgone on Wed Feb 27 2013, 15:12

Yep, there's no water pump, it's just a simply thermo-syphon system at atmospheric pressure.

There is an overflow tube soldered into the radiator, the top of which sits inside the top tank, right at the highest point, just under the rad cap, it then goes to outside, just to the right of the rad (left side if you're looking at the fan) & vents near the flywheel. so there's no pressure in the system.

My plan B piece arrived today....



I was expecting the ribbed bits to be soft, but they are hard brittle plastic, as is the rest of the elbow. It is a good tight fit in the holes, but I think it's too tight & the material is too hard, it could probably crack on assembly & I doubt it would seal as well as the rubber bungs.
Still, I'll hang onto it, it was only a couple of quid & could come in handy for something else.

Also, in the post today, came my paint (that was quick, it was only dispatched yesterday afternoon). So I've put a 1st coat on the parts which already have 2 coats of primer. I gave them a quick rub down first but there are still primer brush strokes showing through in places. I'm not too bothered though, it'll look nice in fresh paint & I don't want to go too overboard with this one. Obviously it wants to look good, but not over-done.

I'm told the radiator tanks would have been painted originally. & I know shiny brass won't dissipate heat as well as a dark colour, but it's hardly likely to be worked hard & I don't think over heating will be an issue in the great British climate.

I want to re-paint the radiator core black though, I have some high temp spray black, but I think I should get rid of some of the red that's on there first. I have got some paint stripper, but not sure weather I should use it? It's the modern eco-friendly stuff that takes days to work. Maybe I should do it then get Ian to put his pressure washer through it to clear it out, so I can get as much air flow as possible once it's up & running.

I think prepping & painting an engine like this is a good idea, as it helps to find any other problems. I'm happy to say I haven't found any more cracks in the castings, just the 2 rusted out core plugs.
This is what puts me off water cooled engines as projects, either too much heat & too little water flow, or too much water & too cold a temperature will cause cracking of castings, & cast iron is never easy to repair (although I was reading somewhere else about "stitching" cracks together with some special screws or something???). Then there's the corrosion involved with constant exposure to water!
It's always a worry anyway, & my Stuart Turner P6 is a prime example (although I paid practically nothing for it, so haven't really been burned). I wonder if the boy's Lister D will hold any nasty surprises? It seems I may have been lucky with this one (not counting my chickens yet though, not until it's been run up to temperature a few times at least).

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by nutgone on Wed Feb 27 2013, 21:32

Right! I'm really annoyed now! My computer, or the browser or something has decided to stop the "copy & paste" function I was using to put my Photobucket photos on my posts. I used to hover over the link, click it & it was copied, then I would just paste it into my post as I was writing. Now I hover over it & click & it does nothing! So this isn't going to be easy.

The paint arrived so I got on with it, painting some bits in the new green (which I think is a tad darker than I wanted, but I give up on paint colours!)....







& some parts were painted black....



I've been priming & painting the bolts as I go....



I know Andrew said not to paint the nuts & bolts, but I'm not quite sure what was meant by that. If it means not to pick them out in a different colour, then I agree (on the most part), but I don't like to see them not painted at all, especially when they've been painted before, as they have here. Anyway, it'll look good when it's done.

I also gave the fan a coat of red gloss, but that particular paint was very thick, due to the cold weather (the engine paint was really thin, even though it is cold at the moment). I thinned the black in a pan of boiled water before using it, I will do the same with the red for the fan on the 2nd coat, as it didn't go on well at all.

I also picked out the governor rods in black, as well as the parts you can see in the photo (oil cap & handle).

Also in the post this morning came the parts to make a new fan belt. I'm using 1" flat belt & Alligator belt lacing. I hate using that Alligator stuff, I never seem to be able to get it perfect & straight, & it appears to be harder on the smaller belts with the smaller clip, but it seems OK & should work fine.

I have ordered the plumbing bits to make up my bottom pipe & have cut myself another sheet steel flange shaped piece to clamp the rubber bung thingies in. Both of those have been stripped of their yellow "Wolfe generators" paint & primed with red oxide. I think they will be green like the rest of the engine, as will the bottom pipe & the rubber bungs, when they are all finished & in place.

I received a nice message from someone who has an oil scraper ring & a choke part for me (in this country), he has sent them out for me. These were the only parts he had for this engine, which was very lucky, as the nice man from Canada had broken one oil scraper ring & I had broken the knob off the choker. So it's all coming together nicely.

I just hope the paint hardens off nicely before the main parts arrive from Canada. Once all these parts arrive I can get on with the final assembly. I can start on the bottom hose as soon as the plumbing bits arrive (both in the post today), so that can be done & ready.

I have also found some bits of pipe which I can use to make a temporary exhaust. I've got some bits of big copper plumbing pipe (I think it's 35mm) & they fit into the outlet hole on the manifold. So I can make something basic out of those, but it's unlikely to have a silencer on it, probably just an up-turned straight pipe (although I said I don't like up-swept exhausts, I have little choice on this engine, as the plugs & leads seem to get in the way of a downwards one).

Now I just need to think about a fuel tank. I have this one....



But I don't like it much. It's bloody huge! & it doesn't look right bolted to the end of the cylinder head....



Also the bracket is very wobbly & would need something else making up to steady the tank. What I really want is a low tank & the vacuum fuel pump system for this engine, but I doubt I will get one of those in a hurry (I stupidly missed the last one on eBay, god knows when another will turn up). I could go for an electric fuel pump, but they are expensive to buy (well, they can be, as I would need a very low pressure type) then I would need to think about a battery to run the damn thing (I suppose a solar panel would keep it charged, they don't use much power).

I dunno. I can use that massive tank to get her running, maybe think about something else later on. Maybe if I'm going for a mock-up of a concrete base in an engine shed I should have a wall mounted tank & make up a back board for the exhibit???

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by kevjhnsn on Thu Feb 28 2013, 00:13

twins seam to have the massive tanks fitted mate here have a look at my vapourizing oil twin cylinder 7-8hp jap 55

kev

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by nutgone on Thu Feb 28 2013, 10:31

Oh I expect this thing would've had an even bigger tank originally, although I believe gravity feed tanks were an option from the factory, I'm not sure they were ever mounted directly to the engine.

The tank I've got just doesn't look right IMO, & there's no way the bracket would stand up if it was full to the brim. Shocked

It's got a permanent filter inside the filler as well, which looks like it's been soldered in, so I can't have a look inside or clean it out properly. There is a plugged hole in the top though, directly above the outlet tap. So I managed to shine a torch in there & look inside. It looked very clean & shiny in there, but that was only one small part of a very big tank that I could actually see.

There's a crank-up near me soon, last time I went there was a bloke selling some larger, wall mounted tanks (he had a load of Stuart Turner stuff for sale as well). Something might turn up there that's suitable. There's also another autojumble before that (Sunday week), might find something there.

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Location : East Sussex

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by nutgone on Thu Feb 28 2013, 22:33

I've been doing a bit of plumbing work today, got my bottom pipe done & even got a coat of primer & paint on it....



I've also given all the newly painted green parts their 2nd & final top coat, as well as the black bits & the fan....





I also couldn't resist giving the engine it's first coat (although I probably should've waited another day)....



Then I thought I would carefully place the rocker box cover, carb & magneto, just to get a feel for whet they look like....



I've also painted the cooling fan hub black, which should look good against the green surround & red fan....



Now I'm playing about with the exhaust. I've discovered 35mm pipe will fit, & I can get fittings & clamps to fit that. I'm using 35mm copper at the moment, & will have to try & get it together without soldering, as I've had solder melt on engine exhausts before. I will be getting a tractor style flap for the top & will need to make up some sort of condensation trap for the bottom of the system.

Hopefully my new core plugs will turn up tomorrow, so I can get those fitted. I gave the radiator core a good coat of paint stripper yesterday....



This morning I gave it a gentle wire brushing & another coat of paint stripper. I've given it to Ian so he can wash it all off with his little pressure washer, hopefully that will bring the paint off without causing any damage, then I can give it a light spray with some VHT black.

Then I suppose I will piece it all back together & wait for the rest of the parts to arrive from Canada. They could be here next week, they could be here tomorrow! But they could also take another 2, 3 or 4 weeks. I'm sure I will find plenty to keep me occupied in the meantime.

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The name's Matt, but call me Nutts if you like, there's already enough Matt's about.

nutgone
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Life Member

Posts : 2356
Join date : 2012-07-04
Age : 37
Location : East Sussex

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by glowes3 on Fri Mar 01 2013, 00:44

Just to say I found all your info very interesting.
Will watch the progress and completion with interest.
Regards Graeme

glowes3
A true Stationary engine owner
A true Stationary engine owner

Posts : 101
Join date : 2012-07-12
Location : South Gippsland, Victoria, Australia

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by Sponsored content Today at 13:39


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