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Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by nutgone on Sat Apr 06 2013, 10:10

The pics are too big for my screen too, so I zoom out by pressing "Ctrl" & "-" keys. "Ctrl" & "+" keys zoom you back in again.

But John, I can see all the pics, even where you've quoted my post.

They're all on the album anyway, the most recent pics will come up first. It can be found here....

http://s682.photobucket.com/user/nutgone_matt/library/Stationary%20Engines/Kohler%204%20Cylinder

Anyway, back to the engine. I've been racking my brains, trying to think up a way to convert the mag to battery & coil, but I just can't do it without doing something drastic to the mag. So, I searched eBay last night & found an old car distributor going for a fiver, it had about 45 mins to go so I bid on it & won. The chances are I won't be able to make it fit, & even if I do it will be running at engine speed, not camshaft speed, so I will get an idle spark, but that's not a problem on a 1000rpm engine.

Why didn't I buy that 4 cylinder Wico A when it was going so damn cheap!??!!! Mad (mind you, I think they're a straight mag, so that would've had an idle spark too).

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by stationary stu on Sat Apr 06 2013, 12:15

Nuts, just out of interest did you mark the pistons and replaced them back into the same cylinder they were removed from?

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by nutgone on Sat Apr 06 2013, 12:27

@stationary stu wrote:Nuts, just out of interest did you mark the pistons and replaced them back into the same cylinder they were removed from?

Stu.

All the pistons, con-rods, big ends, valves & valve seats are number stamped at the factory with this engine, so I didn't have to mark anything myself.

Interestingly though, the parts from Canada were off an earlier engine & didn't have any numbers stamped on them.

The only thing I wish I had marked, but didn't, was the pushrods. I'm told you shouldn't mix pushrods as they wear together. I didn't think it would be as important as, say, the valves, which I know you should never mix up if possible.

Anyway, I'm having a go for a Lucas SR4 mag on eBay this afternoon. It's got no spark but would be easy enough to either get going or convert to coil ignition. It's also got a half speed geared distributor built in, so better suited to this engine.

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by stationary stu on Sat Apr 06 2013, 12:43

I was just wondering your thoughts on marking parts or not. I had a big row with an engine remanufacturer (local back street type garage) After an engine they had overhauled had failed and when I checked it out 2 pistons were not fitted to there original bore and they said it didn't matter, so imagine my responce LOL. As you say Nuts everything should go back into the same place as they wear in that way.

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by Smitty on Sat Apr 06 2013, 14:44

@nutgone wrote:The pics are too big for my screen too, so I zoom out by pressing "Ctrl" & "-" keys. "Ctrl" & "+" keys zoom you back in again.

But John, I can see all the pics, even where you've quoted my post.

They're all on the album anyway, the most recent pics will come up first. It can be found here....

http://s682.photobucket.com/user/nutgone_matt/library/Stationary%20Engines/Kohler%204%20Cylinder

Anyway, back to the engine. I've been racking my brains, trying to think up a way to convert the mag to battery & coil, but I just can't do it without doing something drastic to the mag. So, I searched eBay last night & found an old car distributor going for a fiver, it had about 45 mins to go so I bid on it & won. The chances are I won't be able to make it fit, & even if I do it will be running at engine speed, not camshaft speed, so I will get an idle spark, but that's not a problem on a 1000rpm engine.

Why didn't I buy that 4 cylinder Wico A when it was going so damn cheap!??!!! Mad (mind you, I think they're a straight mag, so that would've had an idle spark too).

Ok, they're here now, must have been lazy pigeons! Laughing Laughing

Nice pics and 5x5,
John.

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by nutgone on Sat Apr 06 2013, 15:09

Nice one John, glad you got to see them eventually.

Stu, I agree with you. If you're doing things properly you should mark each piston ring & they should all go back in their respective grooves the same way up as they came out. I couldn't do this with mine obviously, as the rings came from another engine, & rings are usually changed during an overhaul anyway.

It just goes to show how most mechanics these days are little more than fitters. Most don't know how to rebuild an engine because they don't usually have to do it. Most cars these days would just have a replacement engine supplied by a dealer, then fitted by mechanics. They don't even do stuff like tappet clearances any more, most cars have hydraulic tappets. Most garages don't even realise a full service should include greasing the door hinges, you're lucky if they even bother doing the air filter these days.

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by nutgone on Sat Apr 06 2013, 15:14

Looks like I just won myself a Lucas SR4 mag. It's got no spark, but I've got a working Wico A coil which will go in there (probably). I'm not sure which rotation direction it is or even if it will fit, but it was cheap enough.

Dunno what I'm going to do with my Lucas D25 distributor now? Rolling Eyes

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by Smitty on Sat Apr 06 2013, 15:23

@nutgone wrote:Looks like I just won myself a Lucas SR4 mag. It's got no spark, but I've got a working Wico A coil which will go in there (probably). I'm not sure which rotation direction it is or even if it will fit, but it was cheap enough.

Dunno what I'm going to do with my Lucas D25 distributor now? Rolling Eyes

Looking at your 4 banger mag's rotor.., Can't you dissassemble that? like with the others and have the winds re-done?

I know you said "expensive" so that's accepted, but it can be done that way no?

John.

Looked for head gaskets for yours too but have not run across any yet, available from Kohler no doubt, but looking for ebay ones. J.

Duh.., Re-read the post and you said that lol.

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by Andrew1971 on Sat Apr 06 2013, 16:45

Well Nut's that's a F****r the mag is buggered and you were doing so well it aswell.
Do the point's still work? Just had a thought what about this http://www.molla.org/DIY-CDI/DIY-CDI-Trigger/SC-DIY-TCI-Trigger.htm
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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by nutgone on Sat Apr 06 2013, 18:32

John, that's exactly what happens when they are re-wound. The talk I attended a few months back had a similar "rotating coil" magneto as it's subject.
In fact, today I decided to have a go at dismantling it but I was stumped at the first hurdle. The bearing centres are pressed on the shaft & require a special bearing puller removal tool. It's the kind of thing which takes seconds if you've got the correct piece of machinery, but would take me hours & probably cause a lot of damage to the rotor if I attempted it. I seem to remember, on the slide-show which accompanied the magneto bloke's talk, a shot of the bearing remover, & how everyone remarked how easy these jobs are when you've got the right tools! Rolling Eyes

Andrew, as for the points. They are spinning points with a stationary ring cam, so not easy to get any connections onto them. I did think about wiring the low tension side of a car coil through the stop switch brush, as this goes directly to the points, & then onto a condenser inside the rotor, but I would need to disconnect the primary coil inside the rotor & I don't know which wire it is, I'm not even sure I can disconnect the primary coil without disconnecting the condenser as well, & I don't think a condenser mounted before the points would work.

It's a tricky mag to get your head around when you're trying to invent ways to cheat it.

I think I will see if my local magneto man will give me a quote to just re-wind the coils on the rotor. He should be happy to just do that & guarantee his work. The rest of the mag is fine. But even that is likely to be well in excess of £75. I just bought a Lucas SR4 for under £30, OK it's got no spark, but it's a much simpler mag & I reckon with a little help from Ray (forum member braydh) we can very easily re-wind the coil on it. I could even wind my own LT coil & convert it to that energy transfer system we talked about on my other thread (magneto experiments).

Hopefully both the Lucas SR4 & the old car distributor will be here by the end of next week & I can get on with fitting one or the other. Until then I've decided to make a start on restoring a Ruston Hornsby 6PB for another forum member (yes, that's right, I'm even restoring other people's engines now).

I will do a little thread on it when I've actually done some work.

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by stationary stu on Sun Apr 07 2013, 12:00

Well your loosing me now your talking technical electrics so I'll shut up and wish you well and hope you can sort it, (if anyone can a nut can Laughing Laughing Laughing )

Stu.

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by nutgone on Wed Apr 10 2013, 22:16

Look what turned up today....





It was advertised as having no spark, but when I tested the coil it was fine. It needs (or rather needed) a new condenser, but I think the main reason for the "no spark" problem was these....



Some clever sod had put these silicone, car-type, HT leads on there. These have quite a large resistance & are useless for magnetos, it should always be copper core HT lead in mags.

I've had to make a few adjustments to this one, like move the stop switch to the other side, but it has the correct rotation direction & it has a fully functional impulse starter coupling, which is a fantastic bonus.

Now I've just got to make it fit my engine. If I pull my finger out I could have her running tomorrow. bounce

Here's a couple of pics of the insides. It's in really good nick, & I got it for a song (considering there's nothing wrong with it Very Happy )....





Will continue the thread with a few more details about it, & how I plan to make it fit, tomorrow.

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by Stamford24 on Wed Apr 10 2013, 22:30

Looks tricky! but I guess you have a plan possibly a cunning one! Smile Will you have to reverse the base plate to get extra space for the impulse unit?

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by nutgone on Thu Apr 11 2013, 09:33

Yes, I will have to reverse the base plate, but it will mean I can only attach it by 2 of the 4 original engine fixing bolts, but 2 bolts should be enough to hold it on there, I suppose in time I could make up some other plate to line up with the other 2 bolts to give it a better fixing.

I'm also going to have to file 2 slots in my lovely brass magneto drive gear on the engine. It will still be perfectly usable with the original splined mag drive, but there's no other way of doing it, there just isn't the room to fit a fibre coupling in there & nothing would line up if I put it anywhere else.

This is the bit I've got to file the 2 slots in for the mag impulse drive....



It lines up very well with this, the impulse coupling is just a few mill larger in diameter than the brass drive gear, & it should engage into it by about 3 or 4mm when fixed on. I've just got to make sure I've got the timing exactly spot on before I get the dremmel out. I will only really get one chance at this.

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by stationary stu on Thu Apr 11 2013, 12:11

Good to see your still making good progress with the engine and it looks as if you've sorted out the sparks for it.

Stu.

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by nutgone on Thu Apr 11 2013, 18:46

I only got it started today!

it bloody lives!!!!


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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by gcmc on Thu Apr 11 2013, 19:03

Congratulations Nutts on getting the Kohler running. It looks good and sounds good. The fuel tank doesn't look too bad at all now that it is all back together; the profile of the tank is sort of balanced by the profile of the radiator.
Cheers,
Grant McGregor

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by Stamford24 on Thu Apr 11 2013, 19:13

Brilliant! Bet your Chuffed now. Difficult to tell from a phone video, but does the exhaust sound acceptable? as you were a bit concerned. Looks like it will need something to do or some mods to the governor.

Well Done!


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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by kevjhnsn on Thu Apr 11 2013, 19:14

matt
iagree iagree iagree iagree iagree iagree :thumbup: :thumbup: iagree iagree iagree iagree iagree iagree iagree iagree
just sounds like it needs a load to stop the hunting ,and thats all i can say it needs
whats the next project a CUMMINS 6 CYLINDER then :stick lol: :stick lol:
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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by nutgone on Thu Apr 11 2013, 20:00

When it's warmed up the hunting tends to calm right down to an acceptable level, but doesn't disappear completely. Unfortunately there's no adjustment on the carb & the governor adjustment simply consists of moving that little weight along it's stalk. (although you can adjust the rod lengths).

I think it just needs a little load. I've got a small 230v AC generator which needs some work to get it going, maybe I'll get that sorted & belt it up. Will need to measure speed & get the pulleys matched up though, as it's an AC genny, so needs to run at the correct speed.

Being a nice smooth 4 cylinder it's ideally suited to a genny, or maybe a nice centrifugal impeller type pump.

She starts really easy though, but is very susceptible to flooding when warm (no choke at all even if it's just tepid), but I'm still learning it's ways.

Personally I think it will need a muffler on the exhaust, she's certainly got a bark to her Embarassed . I've got plans for that though, I will buy a front box off something like a Metro or Renault5. Some of the later ones had a small front box on the exhaust systems, they should fit in there without too much trouble. Really needs to be 35mm pipe diameter though, but I could always adapt.

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by stationary stu on Fri Apr 12 2013, 12:50

Well done Nuts you must be proud of yourself with the overhaul of this engine.

I've watched both videos and it sounds better on this one. scratch Maybe it just needs a silencer box fitting to make it sound better but I thought it had a rattle on the other video even though there both the same video :chin: odd. But sorry to say it just didn't sound right, it could also be the sound bouncing off the walls in the shed that's making it sound worse then it is, also pc speakers and sound recording all makes a big difference.
Thing is if you say it sounds right then I'll agree with you 100% :thumbup: Very Happy

Great work,

Stu.

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by nutgone on Fri Apr 12 2013, 13:10

It sounds like an old model T Ford with the exhaust cut off Stu. (hope that's a good description, because that's exactly what I reckon it sounds like).

Inside a shed, with the exhaust right up against those shelves, recorded on a phone camera, then played back through PC speakers, I can imagine it doesn't sound great.

I'm going to mask off around the rad & spray some high temp black paint on the radiator core today. If the weather's fine tomorrow (it's a bit windy & gloomy here today) I will drag it out of the shed, onto the patio, & get a better video of it, going round the whole thing. I find the sound changes as you go round, & at some point you tend to hear what it really sounds like. Trouble with that video was Ian couldn't get right round the engine.

Anyway, I'm pleased as punch with it. It's a bit strange, it's putting me in a good mood, as is this forum, but there's another place at the moment which is putting me in a very bad mood (another forum, which I believe I have now left). But then my half brother returned home today, which has once again put me in a very good mood.

I need a cigarette & an afternoon working on engines! Very Happy

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by braydh on Fri Apr 12 2013, 13:19

Well done Matt that just goes to show what patience and hard work can achieve - a great result now on the silencer front im sure ive seen an old motorbike in that workshop just whip one off there for now am sure no one will mind :stick lol:


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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by stationary stu on Fri Apr 12 2013, 13:20

Have a relaxing weekend Nuts you've earned it. Very Happy

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by nutgone on Fri Apr 12 2013, 17:01

Cheers Stu, I think I will relax this weekend (now darling half brother has gone & I've got my bed back Rolling Eyes )

Ray, we're a bit short on motorbike silencers round here, in fact that's what's been holding up the restoration of a Triumph 3T that my dad's been doing for someone.

Look what turned up today....



I ordered this the same day I found out the mag was no good. I searched eBay & the auction for this was just about to finish. It was up for £4.99 & had no bids, & that's what I got it for.

The mag I've got on there now had a day to go on that occasion, so I set up a snipe bid for it, one of them was going to be my backup plan.

The funny thing is, looking at it now, I reckon I could've made it work. But it would only have been a temporary measure as it would be running at engine speed, so would've set up an idle spark & been wearing the points & bearings unnecessarily. Also I would have needed to get a cap, rotor arm & leads. I would've needed a battery, or 12v (or possibly 6v) supply as well, so would've taken me some time to set up.

I've painted the rad now, I masked it off carefully & gave it about 4 coats of high temp black from the front only. I'm not about to remove the rad, as that would involve breaking seals which are currently water tight.

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

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