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Lister D - vapouriser

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Lister D - vapouriser

Post by mm5aho on Sun Feb 24 2013, 15:21

I've recently bought a "D" for restoration.
I've started stripping it down and notice a few anomolies.
Its plate says its a 26DH, (serial 169332 which seems to be about 1941).
But the carb and what was left of the exhaust attached to a block on the side of the block. I think this is a vapouriser for running paraffin. But should that not mean a different spec number?
Does the vapouriser affect its running on petrol?
It came with only one tank, so I assuem that last owner that ran it (probably a long time ago) didn't run paraffin.

Fortunately the oil in the sump is in good condition, so I don't suspect too much wrong. The magneto wasn't working, but after srtipping cleaning and setting points is producing a good spark with a flick of the drive sprocket.
The carb butterfly was sized, but now freed. The air inlet damper also sized, now freed. The jet locking grubscrew on the carb side is mangled, so I doubt I'll get that out.
Governor srtipped and looks good. Don't intend doing anything with that.
Compression down a little, so I'll pull the head and grind the valves, then set tappets and that should cure that.
Water drain tap was missing, so need to find a replacement for that - at least one in keeping with age of machine.
I was interested to read the thread about Lister D head gaskets. I doubt that its possible to anneal in a domestic oven. Most ovens only go to about 250C, and copper needs about 700-800C (but melts a bit over 1000 if I remember right). I don't have the head off yet, so don't know what gasket is there. If reasonable I'll re-use. If shot, need to make a new one.
Should be a night or two after work to keep me busy on this one!

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Re: Lister D - vapouriser

Post by steve w on Sun Feb 24 2013, 15:39

sounds like you have your hands full Geoff, have you any pics of the engine? steve

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Re: Lister D - vapouriser

Post by nutgone on Sun Feb 24 2013, 17:33

You'll soon tell what's been done when you pull the head off. If it has been properly converted to run on paraffin then it will have a flat top piston, if it has been roughly converted then there will be 2 head gaskets (apparently they need slightly lower compression to run on paraffin or TVO). So you should find out more as you go.

I'm just a beginner with D types though, & am only quoting what I have learnt from others, such as Pete (forum member Foden) who really knows his stuff with D's. It might just be that someone has put a vaporiser on there because that's all they had. I can't see any real problem with running it on petrol through a vaporiser though.

Also, the throttle & governor linkage will be different on a paraffin engine.They use the reverse rotation carb, with the throttle linked on the other side.

Would love to see some pics & know a bit more about how you get on. Maybe you should start a project/restoration thread in that section. Not only does it give us lot something to read but it also logs your restoration somewhere for future use or reference purposes.

Welcome to the forum, by the way. Sounds like you know what you're doing with it anyway. cheers

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Re: Lister D - vapouriser

Post by Foden on Sun Feb 24 2013, 19:55

The D types converted to TVO when in service didn't have the spec plate re-stamped so there are plenty around with their original specs, I have one Myself. Mine runs fine on straight petrol but I dont have two head gaskets fitted, I was advised by the Lister expert David Harris that very few folk used paraffin etc after the Suez crisis was over as the engines performed better on petrol and also didn't get clogged up with carbon!

Pete.

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Re: Lister D - vapouriser

Post by mm5aho on Sun Feb 24 2013, 20:07

Thanks for info in replies. I will try some pix. Should have taken some before I started stripping it down.
I once had an International tractor (this was in Australia, I lived there a few years) and it ran on paraffin. Had two tanks. Start on petrol and then switch over fuels when warmed up. I could not get paraffin, so ran it on petrol.

If paraffin adapted models have a flat piston top for lower compression, I assume "normal" D's have a domed up top to decrease volume in the compression stroke?
But I'm wondering now how much difference that makes.
By changing the sahpe of the piston top, the volume of air on inlet stroke would be reduced. Its true that whatever volume is compressed will get to higher pressure if the volume at TDC is reduced, but surely that assumes the same volume of air ingested on the inlet stroke. Reducing the volume at tdc compression stroke by changing piston shape also reduces the volume sucked in. And if there's less to be compressed, then lower compression. (or did my logic run amok there??)

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Re: Lister D - vapouriser

Post by nutgone on Sun Feb 24 2013, 21:10

The percentage difference in actual volume is different at top & bottom of stroke.

IE: The dome on the piston means very little to the volume at bottom of stroke (total swept volume), but makes quite a big difference at the top (combustion chamber). If you follow me. Very Happy

A few CCs makes little difference to a quart, but makes a lot of difference to an ounce. So to speak.

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Re: Lister D - vapouriser

Post by davelister on Sun Feb 24 2013, 21:31

i have a pet/parraffin/tvo d and run it on petrol/parraffin and also kerosene (28 sec heating oil).petrol to warm it up then swap it over to the other tank.runs well on all 3 fuel's but i do mix a little petrol with the parraffin and the kerosene just to give it a bit more of a kick but i have used them straight with no problems.


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Head removal

Post by mm5aho on Mon Feb 25 2013, 19:59

In doing asbit more stripping of this Lister D I bought, I'm ready to lift the head, but it seems stuck.
Seems to me that with the 5 holding down stud nuts removed, (valve tappets off as well, and valve pushrods out), the head should just lift off.
I've tried hitting it with a rubber hammer, but a bit wary of breaking the casting by hitting too hard.

I'm pleased to see that when I scraped the paint off the exposed edges of the head gasket, that its a copper one, so a good chance it will be reuseable.

But this head. Seems stuck fast. Can't see that I've missed anything. Any hints as to how to get it up without breaking it? How much abuse will it take?

Incidently the vapouriser is so simple. It's a cast box into which the exhaust goes, and then with a socket, the exhaust pipe and muffler screw into that. The carb similarly fits onto the vapouriser. One effect though is that in crossing over the two gas flows (exhaust and inlet), the ports appear to be crossed over. This means carb is on other side if the muffler than would be expected. So its a hot box, heated by the exhaust, and through which the inlet mixture flows to preheat it. So simple, and what could go wrong. Sometimes the simplest things are the best?

So, head removal... any hints, tips?

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Re: Lister D - vapouriser

Post by Foden on Mon Feb 25 2013, 20:51

Usual cause for 'head sticking' on a D is that water has gone down the three headstuds in the hopper and rust is holding it fast. If you are stripping the engine completely then I would boil some water and pour it over the three studs, some might just penetrate down and soften the rust, and give the head a good clouting with a soft faced mallet.

Pete.

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Re: Lister D - vapouriser

Post by fowlerfan on Mon Feb 25 2013, 21:44

Out of interest does the engine number on the plate match the number often stamped on the flywheel ?

I have sometimes been lucky and popped heads off by putting the plug in and turning it over, sometimes the compression will help lift the head. You would be going well to break a D head particulalry if you are tapping on the corners rather than the thinner head walls.

Cheers Dave

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Re: Lister D - vapouriser

Post by nutgone on Mon Feb 25 2013, 22:01

I had a Stuart Turner barrel which was stuck on by a rusted stud once. I had to remove the stud first, but that could be difficult on a D.

I would go with what Pete (Foden) said. Either that or heat & easing oil in the same place.

These old engines throw up all sorts engineering problems, but most of them can be overcome with 3 things: heat, easing oil & a bloody big hammer! Very Happy

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Re: Lister D - vapouriser

Post by mm5aho on Sat Mar 02 2013, 16:21

Well, I managed to get the head off eventually!
It took easing oil, jiggling, and force. I didn't manage to save the head gasket though.
The sticking point was the one stud that stands alone on the opposite side of the water tank from the piston. This had corroded inside the part of the casting of the head that encases it.
I made a bracket to fit the top cover bolts (top of the head), and hoisted the engine up off the ground suspended from overhead by this bracket.
That exerted a seperating force on the head. Hammering it with my heavy plastic hammer, eventually a small crack appeared round the head gasket line. I made some wooden wedges out of very hard hardwood, and hammered these in, putting more force on.
Eventually I have about 10mm gap, so unsuspended all, and just worked the head up and down until it came free.

Now cleaned up, and valves ground, piston de-coked, and a few other thinkgs done. Need a new head gasket, so assembly delayed.
Repaired the fuel tank. Had a rust hole, but rest on good shape. Someone had used fibreglass or similar to repair, but very messy. Ripped that all off and soldered a small copper patch on, cleaned, and painted.

Next weekend? Put head back on and re-assemble, maybe even fire it up?

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Re: Lister D - vapouriser

Post by nutgone on Sat Mar 02 2013, 17:31

Sounds good. It sounds like you've got a reasonable workshop at your disposal, if you can make up special plates for special jobs. I'm getting there with my place, I've got the tools, but am very short on metal stock.

Anyway, it all sounds good, hope to see some pics of your progress. It's a lovely feeling when you spend a day on something & make some real progress with it.

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Re: Lister D - vapouriser

Post by stationary stu on Sun Mar 03 2013, 12:26

Nice work Geoff, glad to hear you didn't have any serious problems and it should be up and running again soon.

Stu.

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Re: Lister D - vapouriser

Post by jay on Mon Mar 04 2013, 11:02

you will also find a lot of converted engines wont have the alledged correct carb but just the butterfly rod has been turned from side to side(I know this is possible and once i get my containoer sorted I will be writing a how to do this on a D carb)
Its not 100% neeeded for 2 gaskets or flat top piston for low loads or rally use but if the engine is being worked hard then it is needed as it will knock on load/pre ignition..

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Re: Lister D - vapouriser

Post by mm5aho on Mon Mar 04 2013, 18:34

jay wrote:you will also find a lot of converted engines wont have the alledged correct carb but just the butterfly rod has been turned from side to side(I know this is possible and once i get my containoer sorted I will be writing a how to do this on a D carb)
Its not 100% neeeded for 2 gaskets or flat top piston for low loads or rally use but if the engine is being worked hard then it is needed as it will knock on load/pre ignition..

Jay I'm not clear what you mean.
Should I just wait until you write about how to recognise and fix this problem you refer to?

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Re: Lister D - vapouriser

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