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More on magnetos

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Re: More on magnetos

Post by stationary stu on Sat Apr 13 2013, 12:55

Ok most of this is going over my head (that's a problem about being short Laughing Laughing Laughing ). I've found some interesting stuff on you tube and the internet about restoring mags etc so maybe you can find some info there to help you along.

Stu.

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Re: More on magnetos

Post by mm5aho on Sat Apr 13 2013, 17:45

It's Running Very Happy

So I stripped that winding off that was in small diameter wire, and rewound the coil with approx 1.0mm dia wire. Not sure how many turns, didn't count and not all that neat, but perhaps 300-500?
Connected it to the ignition coil and a spark plug on the end, and Voila! a spark.
I had two coils, an old Ducatti one and a new Car type. It could be that the Ducatti is a 6V - its physically much smaller, probably a motorbike one.

So, then to get the power out of the magneto (which is nwo a generator of a type), and to the coil. Put two small bolts through the cap and attached the wires that way.

Here's the coil for testing.


That seemed OK, so finished it off with some tape, and its like this...



On the engnie like this.


Son Matt tweaks the points


This shows the coil mounting


And here it is running.


So, now back the project post with some video later.

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Re: More on magnetos

Post by nutgone on Sat Apr 13 2013, 17:51

Great stuff! Very Happy I'm really pleased to see you've got it running, & your experiments have told us all something about this method.

Oh yes, & I love the colour! :thumbup:

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Re: More on magnetos

Post by mm5aho on Sat Apr 13 2013, 18:32

To rewind a magneto properly at home is impossible. There's plenty of stuff to show what others have done, and failed to do.
To get one rewound seems to cost of the order of £60 to £100, and while that's a good job properly done, it doubles the value (cost) of the engine, so doesn't seem sensible.

This method isn't genuine restoration, its not the original arrangement, but it works. It cost me £7.99 for the coil (including postage) and the rest of the bits were stuff in my shed, costing effectively nothing.
So I'm pleased that there's another way to get a D running. The spark seems pretty healthy. I was worried that the points timing might be different from magneto timing, but it seems to work OK.

Thanks for all the advice and help from various ones.

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Re: More on magnetos

Post by nutgone on Sat Apr 13 2013, 20:29

I'm not sure weather it counts as restoration or preservation or what, I remember having a bit of an argument with someone on another forum who said it was just playing about & not real restoration. I think this is real nuts & bolts stuff, saving engines from the scrap heap & making them live once more. There are plenty of people out there with plenty of money who can afford to buy their way out of these problems, & there's nothing at all wrong with that, in fact it's a good thing in a lot of ways, but there's just something about this kind of stuff. I'm as skint as they come, not a pot to p*ss in, as they say, but I am fortunate enough to have a good enough brain & some good, if rather basic, workshop facilities at my disposal.

Maybe it's not restoration, maybe it's preservation, I don't know, but I think it's just as "serious" (for want of a better word) as the bloke who sends everything away to be shot blasted, orders all new parts & just puts an engine together & paints it. It's all got it's place I reckon.

I'm not ranting here, or at least I hope I'm not coming across as having a rant. I feel like I'm just giving some positive reinforcement to the good job you've just done. If you really wanted to you could probably hide that coil & route the HT lead up through the mag so it comes out the top (it looks fine how it is BTW). What you've done here sir is update the ignition system to an "energy transfer system". I think, should you ever want to sell the engine, it would be a selling point. The points will last for ever, as they are now under-stressed & the coil will be equally as under-stressed. It's an improvement on the original & just as portable.

Great work I say, proper brass tacks, nuts & bolts preservation/restoration (delete as appropriate). :thumbup:

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Re: More on magnetos

Post by Ianhw77k on Sat Apr 13 2013, 21:10

Actually there's a new-fangled term for this sort of thing now, it's called up-cycling (a bit like recycling). I don't like the term myself but whatever you call it, you got your engine running and that's what counts. Well done Very Happy

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Re: More on magnetos

Post by Stamford24 on Sat Apr 13 2013, 21:46

Just look at what Farmers did back in the working days of these engines. If it went wrong they didn't rush out and get an exact new part, they got round it some how, just like your doing here! The late great Charles Hudson had a phrase 'the part of the moment' which I think is very apt.

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Re: More on magnetos

Post by blackvanman on Sat Apr 13 2013, 21:59

Stamford24 wrote:Just look at what Farmers did back in the working days of these engines. If it went wrong they didn't rush out and get an exact new part, they got round it some how, just like your doing here! The late great Charles Hudson had a phrase 'the part of the moment' which I think is very apt.
Yep, I'll go with that, anyone who sticks their nose up at it would get my usual response I think, as said its all well and good throwing good money after bad at an engine, but I think these approaches are sometimes warranted, I'd hate to tell them I once polished out a picked up crank on a V8 with wet and dry, and its still running sweetly Very Happy.
Crack on boys, if it weren't for the fact (touch wood fast) my mag's are all ok, I'd probably be looking down similar avenues.
Although I do have an engine related electronics project up my sleeve, just looking out for the bits I need at the moment, but I'll come to that another day another thread Very Happy

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Re: More on magnetos

Post by braydh on Sat Apr 13 2013, 23:52

iagree I should think many an engine has been scrapped in the past for the sake of a coil as in a lot of cases there rewind cost far outways the value of the engine / machine which is a real shame as a little bit of thought could have kept that engine running for many years .

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Re: More on magnetos

Post by pjjms on Sun Apr 14 2013, 08:27

Plenty of ways to deal with an engine, but what I really like about this thread is that you guys are having a go at more than just putting an engine together. Good to see they grey matter being put to use to come up with a good working solution to an problem, the cost of which effectivly scraps some of these engines. Well done. Who cares if it's not restoration as such. This hobby is about getting enjoyment out of our own engines in whatever way we choose to.

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Re: More on magnetos

Post by mm5aho on Sun Apr 14 2013, 08:39

The rest of the story is on the other thread, Lister D 169332 in The restorations folder.
There's some video of it running and a few questions I have about the engine running.

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Re: More on magnetos

Post by mm5aho on Thu May 02 2013, 21:11

I'm working on Lister D #2 (my #2 anyway), and it came with no magneto at all.
Been watching them on Ebay and they sell far too high a price, yet Wico don't. Can get a Wico A for £5-10 (+postage), whereas a Lucas SR1 is often £40-50 (+postage).

So tonight I made a start adapting a Wico A for a Lister D.
I ran out of whitworth bolts, so a delay, then I'm away a few days, but next week I'll get back to this. I'll do some pix.

Main issues are:
  • An adapting plate to fit the Lister mounting bracket
    Change tapered gear to a parallel one with a different diameter shaft.
    adjust timing.


Be interesting to see if this can work. The Wico A I bought has a far better spark than the rewound Luca coupled to a car ignition coil as in thread above.[list][*][list][*]

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Re: More on magnetos

Post by nutgone on Thu May 02 2013, 22:01

I'm told that Lister actually made a batch of D Types with Wico A Series mags on anyway, & I've seen plenty of D's with them fitted (although I suspect most of the ones I've seen didn't have them as standard).

The trouble with the Lucas SR1 is they are also used on some classic bikes, which puts the prices up. The Lucas RS1 is also used on a lot of other, more expensive, engines. The Wico A series is by far the most plentiful of them all.

Some Wico A mags have the same tapered shaft anyway (I'm sure I've got one with a tapered shaft somewhere), but most had a parallel shaft with a machined flat on it.

I would've thought the bolt holes would line up, but they are smaller bolts on the Wico & then the cogs also need to line up scratch study .
Still, an adapter plate shouldn't be difficult to knock up.

I look forward to seeing some pics & how you get on.

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Re: More on magnetos

Post by Foden on Thu May 02 2013, 23:12

Lister did indeed make a few engines with the Wico A Type magneto, 35 to be precise and they were shaft driven back in 1932! My take on it is that as long as it has a magneto which works then the original owners wouldnt have cared what was fitted, it was there just to do a job of work and any mag was better than a none running engine. Smile

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Re: More on magnetos

Post by nutgone on Fri May 03 2013, 10:25

You're quite right Pete.

I was asking on SmokStak why there was a British Watford magneto on my kohler, desperately trying to figure out weather they were shipped over without mags or some other strange reason, when someone piped up & said "I can tell you why that mag was put on there"

"Because it sparks!" Very Happy

So the Wico A powered Lister D's were shafties then. That's interesting.

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Petter A1 Petrol/Paraffin magneto

Post by Capstan on Thu May 23 2013, 16:13

I have had years of grief from this engine.
I removed the shellac varnished coil and replaced it with one potted in modern varnish. Fitted new points, condenser, plug and HT lead.
I spent half my life's energy trying to start this machine which I use to drive a saw or an alternator.
In desperation, I fitted a 12V coil using the points and condenser in the magneto. This was not too difficult as I already had 12V available.
(I live off the grid using batteries and inverters)
It now starts like a dream on just a thimble full of petrol. No petrol in the paraffin (heating oil), just 50:1 2stroke oil and a shot redex lead replacement (fast running out).
My conclusion is that the magneto simply cannot cope with the damp cold Scottish climate. sunny

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Re: More on magnetos

Post by nutgone on Thu May 23 2013, 16:46

Capstan wrote:
My conclusion is that the magneto simply cannot cope with the damp cold Scottish climate. sunny

You could well be right on that. Magnetos don't like getting damp. You might well have also been plagued with weak magnets. These things can't all be good, someone, somewhere along the line has to end up with a duff one, couple that to a damp climate & what have you got?

A good old 12v coil system! lol!

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Re: More on magnetos

Post by stationary stu on Fri May 24 2013, 11:04

Glad to hear you sorted it out and got it running again, are you tempted to try a different mag and get it going or you happy to leave well alone?

That's a strange old fuel mix, does it smoke very much?

Stu.

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Re: More on magnetos

Post by Capstan on Sat May 25 2013, 15:17

It smells a bit kero, but it doesn't smoke as much as it did. I was wondering if people put petrol in to give it a bit of lead (superfluous now).
Got a tad of pre-ignition but I still have to tune it properly. Bit difficult with no timing marks.
Should get that done soon. Can't go fiddling with engines when it's freezing cold and blowing a gale!

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Re: More on magnetos

Post by mm5aho on Sat May 25 2013, 17:33

There's several places on internet advertising rewinds of magneto coils.
But which is best and which best pricing?

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Re: More on magnetos

Post by nutgone on Tue May 28 2013, 12:30

mm5aho wrote:There's several places on internet advertising rewinds of magneto coils.
But which is best and which best pricing?

Generally you get what you pay for. But the good ones (rebuilds) cost more than many engines do.

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Re: More on magnetos

Post by Capstan on Tue May 28 2013, 12:55

I bought a mag coil off the shelf from the Villiers shop.
I have a feeling that my mag will dry out and start working after a while. It is still in place so I just have to swap the wires over, but I was considering going electronic (supposed to give a better burn).

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Re: More on magnetos

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