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Petter M type's

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Petter M type's

Post by Carpmanjay on Thu Apr 11 2013, 16:17

Im thinking i fancy one of these, i love the sound they make too.

Any things to look out for once im in a position to buy, and if actualy find one for sale? i will be wanting a restored one i think as the lister D's are taking there time due to work etc and i dont want to rush it as im enjoying the few hours in the workshop at a time.

what sort of price would i be looking at for a rally ready jobbie? not sure if a favour any particular shaped hopped over another.

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Re: Petter M type's

Post by fowlerfan on Thu Apr 11 2013, 20:51

First port of call is Roland's site www.petternut.co.uk

I have always liked the M types and have had a few over the years but still learning !

Buy the best you can find, all complete and ideally running. Spares for M types can be a problem. Paint job doesn't matter as long as all the bits are there. BTH mags and drive gears are expensive to replace, as are the exhaust pots. M types often have small end bushes and gudgeon pins that are knackered due to lack of oil and can be easily identified as an issue. Watch out for white metal main and big end bearings, Petters often have a hard life and lack of fresh oil will quickly wear the mains, particulalry the pulley side. Later engines have ball/roller bearings so you don't have the same issues as white metal bearings but they are pricey to replace. Often cleaning and re-packing with grease will bring them back to useable condition. Piston rings and ring grooves take a hammering, especially on lighting set engines where they are often run at full load for long periods. Not a major problem to true up ring grooves and obtain new rings but always something to consider. M types also seem to have 'softer' metal for crankshafts and I have been unlucky having two engines recently with bent crankshafts. They can be straightened but you can never get them 100%. 1.5HP engines also are prone to cracked flywheel spokes.

If you buy a good runner, all complete you should have a decent engine. Ebay is a guide for pricing as is the SEM but you can budget £300 - £600 depending on the model and condition. Hopper cooled engines tend to demand the higher prices.

Cheers Dave

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Re: Petter M type's

Post by nutgone on Thu Apr 11 2013, 22:21

I like them too, but haven't owned one. I would love one but they are out of my price range, even basket case ones seem to fetch silly money these days.

I've seen Petter Light sets, in barn find condition, fetch around a grand on eBay recently. I concur with all the info above & bow to the superior knowledge, but personally I don't think you'd find much of one for under £450-£500 these days. A really good example of one of the more sought-after models, restored to a good finish & mechanically sorted could well command over a grand on the right day.

Lovely engines, but quite sought after & very pricey. I think you're talking open crank money, but a better engineered engine at the end of it. (OK, I probably shouldn't have said that last bit, but they were a very an extremely well engineered engine for their time).

I hope you get one though, those prices are mainly based on my local area on eBay, & as we all know eBay is never a good place to use for engine pricing, as it can vary wildly from week to week.

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Re: Petter M type's

Post by stationary stu on Fri Apr 12 2013, 12:22

I do think the Petter M types are a true engine-mans engine, as Dave has already said a lot can go wrong with them and you have to have a fair knowledge to be able to carry out the repairs to a good standard to keep them running 100%. Have a read of Ian's thread, it's very interesting also this was an engine bought in good faith and it wasn't till he got it home he found out about it's problems. But what a great job he did on it's restoration and it sounds fantastic now. If your after a Petter M you might be able to buy Ian's M type if he still has his it, it won't be cheap but it will be spot on, 100% correct in all ways and will last for years with some basic maintenance. With an engine such as Ian's you can see what's been done and know it's right rather then trying to buy from an eBay advert.

http://www.stationaryengineforum.net/t5048-petter-m-3hp-progress-being-made-at-last

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Re: Petter M type's

Post by jay on Fri Apr 12 2013, 12:52

and M types run much better with a load on them especially on parrafin,if run off load for long periods they can chuck out oil sputs from the exhuast especially if over oiled...They do sound nice especially the bigger hp ones but weight is much bigger once you go up in size

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Re: Petter M type's

Post by nutgone on Fri Apr 12 2013, 13:25

They do make a lovely sound, got a real ring to them. Very Happy

I've wanted one for years, ever since I started rallying really. If I hadn't lost interest throughout my late teens & all my 20s I might have had one by now.

Maybe if I sell the Scott & the Kohler, but I don't think I could bring myself to do that.

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Re: Petter M type's

Post by stationary stu on Fri Apr 12 2013, 13:32

They do have a nice sound but personally I'd rather have a nice open crank, hit n miss engine. Everyone to there own. Very Happy

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Re: Petter M type's

Post by nutgone on Fri Apr 12 2013, 14:19

Yeah, go on then. I'll have one of those as well. Very Happy

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Re: Petter M type's

Post by Carpmanjay on Fri Apr 12 2013, 14:22

Thanks for the replies guys,

of course your right stu, if i am gona spand 600+ then i would probably be tempted into an open crank/hit n miss engine like you. ive always liked the amanco 's.

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Re: Petter M type's

Post by fowlerfan on Fri Apr 12 2013, 16:54

You should be able to get an Amanco for £500 money but you will also be able to get a decent running M if you look around. Acorn tops are pretty popular with a lot of choice, its the Apple and Square tops that hold more money. Tank cooled engines aren't so handy to show but the little 1.5 HP tank cooled engines are very neat.

If you want to see some very nice running M types go along to the 1000 engine rally, the guys with the Petter Light line up have them running absolutely spot on. They aren't everyone's taste but folk are often put off as they can be hard to set up and get running right, anything less than spot on and they will spit, bang and produce clag all day long! A good continuous load works wonders which is why they are often driving dynamos or centrifugal pumps.

I would be hard pushed to choose between a nice M type and an open crank but thats just me Laughing
Cheers
Dave


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Re: Petter M type's

Post by nutgone on Fri Apr 12 2013, 17:43

OK Dave you can stop now, you're making me dribble! Laughing

Now I REALLY want a Petter M. Also, the acorn tops were always one of my favourites. I never liked the apple tops quite so much (that's just me though, I have quite odd tastes, some say).

I would love to get hold of a project one, but unless I can find one outside of eBay I could never afford it. In my local area even the barn find ones seem to fetch the same as a completely restored one. They're probably a lot cheaper in other areas. Everything's expensive down here in the south east.

P.S. you say you're still learning, but I think I know who I would be asking for advice if I ever got myself a Petter M. :thumbup:

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Re: Petter M type's

Post by Carpmanjay on Fri Apr 12 2013, 20:08

Ooooooh I like them both a lot! I've been looking at both you tube, and the M sounds lovely but then so does the hit n miss when it's set up nicely plus it got lots of nice machanicly looking moving bits!!

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Re: Petter M type's

Post by Carpmanjay on Fri Apr 12 2013, 20:16

Oh and I'm with you nutty, I prefer the acorn tops aswell.

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Re: Petter M type's

Post by Carpmanjay on Fri Apr 12 2013, 20:24

Slightly of topic but along similar lines, where do u guys find your engines? My next one will be a restored one I'm sure. Does putting up a wanted add on the forums, SE mag etc if I fancy somthing specific?

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Re: Petter M type's

Post by nutgone on Fri Apr 12 2013, 21:31

Difficult for me to answer as I only tend to buy projects, or non-runners at least (I like to know what they look like inside Very Happy ). I get most of mine on eBay, but bargains are few & far between on there, especially with the more sought after engines.

A wanted ad on the forums costs nothing, maybe there's a "for sale/wanted" section on the Petter website linked to above?

I don't know about SE magazine as I haven't read a copy since about 1994. I believe most engines on there are pretty pricey though, but you'd really need to hear from someone who actually reads it.

I reckon most engines turn up when you're not looking for them though, & I also reckon one of the best ways is to get out there, amongst the local rally scene, & get talking to people, make contacts, & something might just come along. You may need to travel for the right one though, if you're after something specific.

I hope you get a Petter M :thumbup:

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Re: Petter M type's

Post by fowlerfan on Fri Apr 12 2013, 22:06

Nutts, Happy to offer advice on M types but there are others out there who have FAR more knowledge on restoring these engines. I can pass on my experiences but for proper engineering repair advice on M types I can refer you to others who have restored numerous to better than new standard. Anyway, if I can't help I know someone who can.

I try to buy engines where possible from other enthusiasts, you generally get a better deal and can see what you are buying each time. I have bought from Ebay in the past but it can be problematic. The last M I bought was/is a good runner but I have since discovered a terrible bodge on the big end which I will need to sort out....never simple. I can recommend visiting a few rallies and chatting to the engine guys and asking around. There is usually an M type or two for sale at the 1000 engine but you will pay top money but you can inspect at close hand before buying.

Prices in SEM are variable, some reasonable, others not but you have to move quick to get things fairly priced. Have a look in your local WH Smith for the SEM to see typical pricing these days. I am sure with the forthcoming rally season you could get some leads on M types for sale, best of luck on your searches...!

Cheers
Dave

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Re: Petter M type's

Post by nutgone on Fri Apr 12 2013, 22:33

Can you get SEM in newsagents these days? I know you never used to, but like I said, I'm a wee bit out of touch where SEM is concerned (only like 20 years out of touch!)

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Re: Petter M type's

Post by matt86 on Fri Apr 12 2013, 22:44

or order it over the internet im sure you can buy 1 issue .... My local used to sell it but since has stopped i got a subcription letter the other day i think il need to subscribe again .

Petter M's are nice but not my cup of tea , the bigger ones can be quite thirsty on load .

I have somehow been lead into the american engine market . One of mine is TG and the other is hit and miss ... none work at moment , but i am contantly collecting parts for them and learning more about them . Just found out some usefull info to get my valve timing correct on the fairbanks , As there are no marks and the valve is not staying open long enough ... Think something is worn so i need to make a longer push rod .

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Re: Petter M type's

Post by nutgone on Sat Apr 13 2013, 10:02

I think with your preferred engines Matt that's the good thing, they are easier to work on & make bits for as they were originally meant for working on American farms where the nearest village would've been miles away & the nearest engine shop even further. Farm hands had to keep these engines running & it's testament to the designers that they did, & probably still do in some cases.

The Petter M was pretty complicated for it's time. A good piece of engineering, but even in it's day it must have been an engineers engine.

It's a good thing we're not all into the same engines, or the rally-field line-up would be a very boring place indeed. I'm afraid down this way there are an awful lot of Amanco engines (at certain rallies) when you walk down the line, & none of them ever seem to be running anything or have much in the way of information or an exhibit around them, just another engine in a field. I don't know what it's like in other areas, but things change all the time, there's still new blood coming into the scene & there's always some variation.

Am I right in thinking the Petter S type is basically a large Petter M? (I know there are differences, I think the M is a 2 stroke whereas the S is a semi-diesel, but both have injectors).

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Re: Petter M type's

Post by stationary stu on Sat Apr 13 2013, 12:50

Well if I was to buy an M type I'd try and get the apple top (my fav) it can be thought of as an investment as there price is always going to go up (if things go right and we don't have a big crash in the countrys ecconomy.)
As you could have a problem deciding what to buy between an M type and an open crank the only solution is to buy both Very Happy
The Amanco is a good popular engine but personally I'd look for something a little bit rarer and you'll find you get a lot of interest at rallies. But the rarer they are the more expensive they are so that bring the M type to being the better choice as it's cheaper to get hold of and get a fully restored engine for your money.
It could be worth the trip to the 1000 engine rally just to see/hear the M type running, have a good chat find out all there good/bad points and maybe pick up a bargin or be able to get an engine from someone trustworthy. I'm sure if you leave a deposit then you can arrange collection after the rallly.
You go for the engine you want, don't let anyone including myself Laughing Laughing put you off, as at the end of the day it's got to be your choice as you'll have to live with it for a few years to come. Just think about size/weight when transporting the engine and storage space at home as these can be one of your major issues rather then the colour of the engine. Neutral
Good to see you checking out you tube and the internet to get a feel for the engine and how it should sound and if it doesn't sound like it walk away, there's always another around the corner.

Stu.

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Re: Petter M type's

Post by nutgone on Sat Apr 13 2013, 14:52

iagree iagree iagree iagree iagree

Well said Stu.

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Re: Petter M type's

Post by fowlerfan on Sat Apr 13 2013, 17:28

nutgone wrote:
Am I right in thinking the Petter S type is basically a large Petter M? (I know there are differences, I think the M is a 2 stroke whereas the S is a semi-diesel, but both have injectors).

Hi Nuts, In basic terms yes, the smallest S type is the 5 HP and they share some castings with the 5 HP M type. Roland's site has excellent write ups on the S types and 5 HP engines, they will tell you most of what you need to know.

Although M types use a form of 'fuel injection' it is still deemed a carburettor as the fuel is atomised at the fuel nozzle by means of the intake stroke rather than a fuel pump, hence not a true injector. The diaphgram pump on the M type is purely to lift fuel from the base tank, not to provide injection pressure. S types however use injector pumps and an injector as you correctly mention and both are two stroke engines.

S types are a different ball game again from M types, I have no experience with them but perhaps one day I will pick up a 5 HP S type. They need careful attention as they can run away due to over fueling from attempts to start them, hence you really need to know what you are doing and be prepared to deal with such an event.

Matt is correct about the fuel consumption, even the 1.5 HP lighting sets are thirsty but don't worry about the cost, just listen to the exhaust note Laughing


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Re: Petter M type's

Post by nutgone on Sat Apr 13 2013, 17:58

Thanks for that Fowlerfan, that's really good information. I guess we're all still learning. :thumbup:

I'm starting to learn a little something about thirsty engines, I can't be sure but I think my Kohler might just be in that category. Well, there are 4 hungry pistons to feed! Laughing

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Re: Petter M type's

Post by fowlerfan on Sat Apr 13 2013, 18:48

No probs mate, my dad and I have learned an awful lot about M types over the years by talking to others and careful tinkering and trial and error. We are always learning and this reminds me of an incident with a friend a couple of years back when he tried to re-start his 5 HP Victory model that had lain for a couple of years due to mag failure. I gave him a replacement T-B magneto and we bolted it on but in the excitement of trying to get it running we forgot to check the governor.....of course, it had jammed in the full throttle position and after the first couple of swings it took off.... Twisted Evil The engine was mounted on a railway platform trolley but it was almost jumping off by the time we got it shut down. The governor was freed off and oiled up and it was fine thereafter, nothing like a run away engine to get engine men hopping around Laughing

Your Kohler is a very nice unit, something a bit different. I have a Coventry Victor MW2 twin, it drinks fuel like there is a hole in the fuel tank, I think most multi cylinder engines are the same.

Cheers Dave


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Re: Petter M type's

Post by nutgone on Sat Apr 13 2013, 20:15

I remember a Petter A1 doing that to me once. The previous owner had put the governor linkage round the wrong way, damn thing went dancing of up the garden! I think I pulled the plug lead in the end. Not quite as bad as it happening on a Petter M though, there's a lot more A1's about for a start, & they're a lot more standard in construction.

I don't remember our Douglas twin using a lot of fuel, but I haven't run it for about 17 years, & we never had it running on load. Petrol wasn't such a commodity back then either.

Oh well, it's worth it for the sound, just like with the M types.

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