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Hopper cooling systems

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Hopper cooling systems

Post by mm5aho on Sun Apr 14 2013, 12:34

Having got a Lister D running, and then drained the water off (its still a bit cold here in Scotland!), I was wondering about using antifreeze in such a system.
I have a 3 cylinder diesel in my boat (Volvo Penta 30 HP, which I think is actually a marinised Perkins), and it goes year round with antifreeze, even when the boat is out of the water for the winter.

So on such engines as have a water cooling system at atmospheric pressure (open top, hopper etc), what about antifreeze? Maybe it would help slow down corrosion too?
Any comment?

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Re: Hopper cooling systems

Post by stationary stu on Sun Apr 14 2013, 13:55

Geoff I've never left an engine to sit with anti-freeze in, what I have done after the rally season has finished I fill the system with anti-freeze mix run it till hot then drain it down so if the water is trapped anywhere there's no chance of it freezing.

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Re: Hopper cooling systems

Post by Smitty on Sun Apr 14 2013, 15:25

stationary stu wrote:Geoff I've never left an engine to sit with anti-freeze in, what I have done after the rally season has finished I fill the system with anti-freeze mix run it till hot then drain it down so if the water is trapped anywhere there's no chance of it freezing.

Stu.

Same method here Stu, works a treat.
J.

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Re: Hopper cooling systems

Post by Smitty on Sun Apr 14 2013, 15:34

Hi Geoff,

I will use antifreeze in my engines with hopper cooling with no fear of damage or anything as we get flash freezes from time to time here in the North probably as you do where you are.
Your thought on extra protection or corrosion prevention sounds a reasonable possibility to me also, and I think it will.

I am like Stu in respect of letting liquids of any kind sit over winter including petrol and oils, as sediment is my worry and buildup over time could clog passages or what have you.
Unfounded most likely, but I make myself happy with it lol.

Regards, John.

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Re: Hopper cooling systems

Post by nutgone on Sun Apr 14 2013, 18:02

Just make sure it's antifreeze that's meant to be in cast iron systems (the blue stuff I think, ethelyne glycol).

What people don't realise about antifreeze is it contains glycol, which is a substance a bit like egg white. When added & mixed into water it does something strange. Let me explain it like this, if you put water in a water pistol let's say it fires a jet out to 3 yards. If you add glycol to that water it will fire a jet out much further, like 5 or 6 yards. So glycol helps water circulate, it almost lubricates the water. This is more important in pumped systems, but there is still a certain amount of flow even in hopper cooled systems (thermo-syphon flow).

Antifreeze also raises the boiling point of the water too, & modern antifreeze does help to inhibit corrosion. Personally I think you'd be better off using it. But as it's expensive stuff these days get a small Jerry can so you don't have to throw it away each time you transport the engine.

Just out of interest, have you seen that German bloke on YouTube who has a motorbike powered by a Lister D? He has fashioned a hopper cover for that & put a sight glass on the side of the hopper. If you look carefully you can see the blue of the anti-freeze in the sight glass.

Also, antifreeze, even in cars, should be drained & changed every 2 years. But then so is brake fluid. Although I don't know anyone who actually does either! Very Happy

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Lister D powered Motorbike

Post by Lewis MacRae on Sun Apr 14 2013, 18:11

Just watched the video and its a brilliant idea Idea because dosen't weight give you more traction but on the other hand makes you burn more fuel (sorry if i'm wrong).

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Re: Hopper cooling systems

Post by nutgone on Sun Apr 14 2013, 18:22

Lewis MacRae wrote:Just watched the video and its a brilliant idea Idea because dosen't weight give you more traction but on the other hand makes you burn more fuel (sorry if i'm wrong).

Knowing just how heavy they are I'm actually quite surprised that a Lister D even has enough power to pull itself along, let along a bike & rider! Shocked

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Re: Hopper cooling systems

Post by Smitty on Sun Apr 14 2013, 19:06

All points well taken Nutt,

I am not sure if I caught the difference between blue and green though, and I am partial to green as I have 12 gallons of it still sitting in my yard from last fall when I had a clutch fan changed in the big truck and kept the old and put in the new Rolling Eyes
I do use it in just about any engine I have ever worked with.

I know that antifreeze lessens the electrolysis factor by quite a bit and thus prevents corrosion to an extent, but that's all I know.
The mixed 50/50 with water has been my standard for Eons as I get it free.

Personally I don't think that antifreeze goes bad but just dirty and I filter it, but then I didn't invent the stuff either and really don't know if it does or doesn't Laughing

What is the difference between the colours? Does anyone know?
Could one be for Aluminium based systems maybe? There must be a reason for the colours one would think as I know that here in my area RV's use Red stuff in the winter while dormant as that is food grade compatible (potable water systems) and is also biodegadable.

The big truck's cooling system runs through cast iron and aluminium as well, so I can't even use my secret Dutch logic (a beer and light thinking mixed, for heavy thinking I use whiskey and Rhum Rolling Eyes ) to even take a guess Laughing

John.


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Re: Hopper cooling systems

Post by nutgone on Sun Apr 14 2013, 19:19

Not entirely sure John, I always used blue because it's generally cheaper. I know a lot of the more modern cars use the red stuff here, but I don't think it's the same as the red stuff you describe (I certainly wouldn't risk it being food safe pale ).

Like you say, a lot of them run through engines with aluminium heads, iron barrels, possibly with steel liners & a copper & brass rad.

As for ageing, it is always best to use an antifreeze tester, as I think it can lose it's potency over time. They're pretty cheap, but make sure you get a coolant one, some of the cheap supermarkets over here sell them & only when you get it home do you realise it's actually for the screen wash antifreeze, not coolant! Mad

A coolant one will tell you the freezing & boiling points. test each autumn, then you know you're good for winter.

My dad's got some of the red stuff in the shed, & I've got an old bottle for the blue stuff. I will check them out tomorrow & see what the difference is. I really need to put some in the Kohler, especially as it's a rad system & the water will most likely be staying in there.

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Re: Hopper cooling systems

Post by Smitty on Sun Apr 14 2013, 19:36

Thanks Nutt,

As for the advice of testing, I do without fail as frozen and cracked castings are a pita Shocked
I've had my share in the past.

When I said Food grade, I meant "acceptable" to use in the home sytem, as for drinking it, it'd have to be better tasting than Aquavelva, then I could let the experts in the park try it first :stick lol:

Cheers, John.

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Re: Hopper cooling systems

Post by nutgone on Sun Apr 14 2013, 19:40

Yes John, food safe/food grade & palatable are 2 very different things! Laughing

My old boss used to have a tub of food safe grease, for use on food production lines.

But we didn't ever tuck into it when we got hungry! pale

I have tasted blue antifreeze though, once whilst trying to bleed in the cooling system on my BMW. The M20 "small 6" engine can be a pain to bleed in & at some point there is a useful trick where you blow into the top of the expansion bottle. Well there was some water/antifreeze mix left around the rim & I can be a bit quick to jump in with these things sometimes. It was only a little taste on the lips, but that stuff is very sweet, I can see how accidents happen with kids getting hold of it.

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Re: Hopper cooling systems

Post by Smitty on Sun Apr 14 2013, 20:15

nutgone wrote:Yes John, food safe/food grade & palatable are 2 very different things! Laughing

My old boss used to have a tub of food safe grease, for use on food production lines.

But we didn't ever tuck into it when we got hungry! pale

I have tasted blue antifreeze though, once whilst trying to bleed in the cooling system on my BMW. The M20 "small 6" engine can be a pain to bleed in & at some point there is a useful trick where you blow into the top of the expansion bottle. Well there was some water/antifreeze mix left around the rim & I can be a bit quick to jump in with these things sometimes. It was only a little taste on the lips, but that stuff is very sweet, I can see how accidents happen with kids getting hold of it.

Yes that would be a terrible thing wouldn't it?

I've heard horror stories of dogs dying from it, and a slow and painful one at that, brrrr..., poor creatures! Sweet isn't alsways good is it? I know that to be true with women :stick lol:

John.

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Re: Hopper cooling systems

Post by matt86 on Sun Apr 14 2013, 20:30

nuts with antifreeze the blue one has to be changed every 2 years and the red is every 5 years ....

Get the red stuff from work and we mix it 50:50 ratio .

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Re: Hopper cooling systems

Post by nutgone on Sun Apr 14 2013, 20:35

I had a feeling the red stuff was for all aluminium systems, but don't know for sure. Maybe it is just longer lasting.

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Re: Hopper cooling systems

Post by matt86 on Sun Apr 14 2013, 20:50

nutgone wrote:I had a feeling the red stuff was for all aluminium systems, but don't know for sure. Maybe it is just longer lasting.

its a longer lasting coolant , we use it on everything at work . Its also in my tranny .

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Re: Hopper cooling systems

Post by nutgone on Sun Apr 14 2013, 20:54

Hmmm.... :chin: :chin: :chin:

Think that can might just go missing from the workshop then. Well, he nicked my flushing oil! Laughing

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Re: Hopper cooling systems

Post by stationary stu on Mon Apr 15 2013, 11:59

I have to use the red stuff in my 4x4 Toyota, don't ask me why or what the difference is as I've never bothered to check it out. It's what Toyota recommend so I use it. According to the Toyota forum anything can be used but I'm happy to stick with the red stuff even though it's bloody expensive.

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Red or blue

Post by wdf on Mon Apr 15 2013, 14:34

definately do not mix the two together.... as a precipitation will form......

the blue starts being "anti corrosive" immediately.... but the red takes times to build its "anti corrosion" properties... hence why it lasts 5 years (actually 4...)

Red is good for something that runs "hot" like a modified (ie with bigger turbo..) Tdi Landrover that has insufficient cooling capacity..... even with a new radiator and fixed fan.. (the problem is the lack of circulation in the head, not the size of the radiator.)

Blue is better for a "rusty" engine...

Red can be disposed of in the garden.. (its non toxic)

Blue is poisenous and will kill the plants and harm the cute fluffy woodland animals with faces and personalities...

Red will find any "leaks" easier than blue... and will actually rot a copper head gasket.

If you have a copper head gasket then use Blue.

If you have a fibre head gasket then red is okay...









Last edited by wdf on Mon Apr 15 2013, 14:35; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spelling)

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Re: Hopper cooling systems

Post by nutgone on Mon Apr 15 2013, 15:00

wdf wrote:definately do not mix the two together.... as a precipitation will form......

the blue starts being "anti corrosive" immediately.... but the red takes times to build its "anti corrosion" properties... hence why it lasts 5 years (actually 4...)

Red is good for something that runs "hot" like a modified (ie with bigger turbo..) Tdi Landrover that has insufficient cooling capacity..... even with a new radiator and fixed fan.. (the problem is the lack of circulation in the head, not the size of the radiator.)

Blue is better for a "rusty" engine...

Red can be disposed of in the garden.. (its non toxic)

Blue is poisenous and will kill the plants and harm the cute fluffy woodland animals with faces and personalities...

Red will find any "leaks" easier than blue... and will actually rot a copper head gasket.

If you have a copper head gasket then use Blue.

If you have a fibre head gasket then red is okay...








Many thanks for this. this is exactly the kind of info we love on this forum. You're a great help, & I've learned something new today. Very Happy

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Re: Hopper cooling systems

Post by pjjms on Mon Apr 15 2013, 19:06

One is glycol and the other is OAT (organic acid technology).

The boiling point of antifreeze is worth considering in a hopper cooled engine. In effect this will cause your engine to run hot, 8% hotter at 50/50.

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Re: Hopper cooling systems

Post by stationary stu on Tue Apr 16 2013, 12:58

wdf wrote:definately do not mix the two together.... as a precipitation will form......

the blue starts being "anti corrosive" immediately.... but the red takes times to build its "anti corrosion" properties... hence why it lasts 5 years (actually 4...)

Red is good for something that runs "hot" like a modified (ie with bigger turbo..) Tdi Landrover that has insufficient cooling capacity..... even with a new radiator and fixed fan.. (the problem is the lack of circulation in the head, not the size of the radiator.)

Blue is better for a "rusty" engine...

Red can be disposed of in the garden.. (its non toxic)

Blue is poisenous and will kill the plants and harm the cute fluffy woodland animals with faces and personalities...

Red will find any "leaks" easier than blue... and will actually rot a copper head gasket.

If you have a copper head gasket then use Blue.

If you have a fibre head gasket then red is okay...


Great stuff thanks for passing this info on. I'm lucky as the water level has only dropped once and I just added a cup of water (enough) to top up, but I do need to buy some red even though I've gallons of blue stuff. Crying or Very sad

Stu.

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Re: Hopper cooling systems

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