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Nutgone goes all Lister! (Lister A tank cooled project).

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Lister A

Post by Lewis MacRae on Mon Apr 15 2013, 21:04

mm5aho wrote:I saw that one on Ebay and lamented the distance that I live from where most of the bargains are Crying or Very sad

Not sure about that, did you see the single flywheel Lister A on E bay in Aberdeen a couple of weeks ago it was 250 quid but dont think anyone bidded on it! Very Happy

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Re: Nutgone goes all Lister! (Lister A tank cooled project).

Post by Smitty on Tue Apr 16 2013, 13:04

nutgone wrote:BTW, when I come to offload it, would it be OK to roll it down a pair o ramps on the flywheels (if I was very careful). I remember buying a hopper cooled Lister L years ago & that was pulled out of a ditch & up a hill on it's flywheels. Mind you, that was seized solid, so it didn't do much rolling. It was muddy though, I remember the 2 lines left in the turf up the bank. I also remember the shackle giving way on the Tirfer winch that the bloke was using, a piece of it flew just past my left ear like a bullet! Shocked

Anyway, can I roll it on it's flywheels? I've got a trolley to put it on (the barrow trolley I had the Kohler on before, which came with the Stuart Turner P6), so I would roll it down onto that, it wouldn't be resting on the flywheels for long.

I think I'd be more worried of it going on a rampage down the ramp lol.
If it is anything as hard to handle as the D, I'd get a good size rope to be safe.
I don't think you'll hurt the bearings unless it falls and bangs the wheels.

John.

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Re: Nutgone goes all Lister! (Lister A tank cooled project).

Post by stationary stu on Tue Apr 16 2013, 13:26

I had my Lister J run away from me as I was getting it out of the van. I did have rachet straps on it and it was near the end, well I though it was at the end and I let it go affraid nearly ran my wife over it took off that fast, that was on a trolley though.
I use 2 rachet straps let one go and the other stops it and work it off like that.

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Re: Nutgone goes all Lister! (Lister A tank cooled project).

Post by nutgone on Tue Apr 16 2013, 13:29

Well it's here. My dad invited his friend along, so there was 3 of us. We tipped it over & rolled it along it's flywheels up the ramps into the car, when we got home my dad backed his car down the drive (down hill) & the 3 of use lifted it straight out & onto the waiting trolley. If anything I would say it's lighter than a D, but it may just be easier to handle.

Pics to follow shortly, but I am very impressed with it. It's in better condition that it appears in the sale photos.

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Re: Nutgone goes all Lister! (Lister A tank cooled project).

Post by Smitty on Tue Apr 16 2013, 13:44

As soon as you tire of it Nutt, I'll come and collect it lol, one of those is what got me going to end up with a D, and the IHC!

John.

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Re: Nutgone goes all Lister! (Lister A tank cooled project).

Post by nutgone on Tue Apr 16 2013, 13:59

I'll let you know John, you can have first refusal.

OK, just before I have a bit of late lunch I've been out & taken some pictures. As usual there's a new Photobucket album devoted to this one, which can be found here....

http://s682.photobucket.com/user/nutgone_matt/library/Stationary%20Engines/Lister%20A

Here's the first few pics for you, before I sprayed the whole thing with easing oil/parts wash (my home made solution)....







As you can see here it still has it's original cast iron base. I remember years ago people saying these were important as a lot went missing or never had one (don't quote me though, I could be wrong on that)....



& here's a few more or you. Enjoy....









My first job is going to be to remove the inspection plate, just to have a look inside. Then I want to remove the barrel, which will mean removing the carb first. I may get that done today, but really I need to get on with the Ruston Hornsby 6PB. I can have a few projects going on at the same time though, & that will probably be what happens here.

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Re: Nutgone goes all Lister! (Lister A tank cooled project).

Post by matt86 on Tue Apr 16 2013, 14:06

She's a beauty !

being tank cooler will not be as heavy and i believe the flywheels are not as beefey as the ag engine .

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Re: Nutgone goes all Lister! (Lister A tank cooled project).

Post by nutgone on Tue Apr 16 2013, 18:32

If you check the album you'll see I've done a fair bit already, here's a quick description of works so far....

First thing's first, inspection plate off for a look inside. It turns but feels odd at top of stroke. No tell-tale signs in there though.

Off with the carb & barrel. Then I found the problem, the gudgeon pin is partially seized. So I split the big end & removed the piston & rod as one.

I saw the oil ring was missing....



I believe some people leave these off on some engines these days (I'm told a lot of vintage motorbike enthusiasts do to improve lubrication, especially when there's more than enough compression rings), but I found it, dangling from the crank shaft....



Seems it must have slipped off when the last person put the piston in the barrel, it must've worked it's way down the crank web & round the shaft. I got it out, but it's broken, so there must be another bit in there somewhere. Unless this is some kind of oiling ring which is supposed to be dangling from the crank shaft??? (Please someone tell me if it is & I will put it straight back).

I've also removed the valves (both valve caps were already loose) & stripped the carb down, but haven't taken pics of that yet.

I know now as well as mag & tanks I will need one compression ring & one oil scraper (although I might try it without).

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Re: Nutgone goes all Lister! (Lister A tank cooled project).

Post by A Lister on Tue Apr 16 2013, 18:42

Stop!!! bounce Yes, it's a ring oiler! Don't break it! There will be another one inside the timing case too.


Last edited by A Lister on Tue Apr 16 2013, 18:47; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Nutgone goes all Lister! (Lister A tank cooled project).

Post by nutgone on Tue Apr 16 2013, 18:42

It's not a slipped piston ring is it? It's a bloody oiler ring! Embarassed Mad Mad Embarassed Embarassed

Right, I'll put it back on! Rolling Eyes

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Re: Nutgone goes all Lister! (Lister A tank cooled project).

Post by nutgone on Tue Apr 16 2013, 18:43

A Lister wrote:Stop!!! bounce Yes, it's an oil ring! Don't break it! There will be another one inside the timing case too.

Just worked it out didn't I, but thanks for jumping in so quick to tell me, it's very much appreciated. :thumbup:

I feel a bit silly now. I had a bit of a job getting it off. Guess I will just have to put it back on, very carefully. Embarassed


Someone tells me it shouldn't be a split ring though? Can anyone elaborate on this or shed any light please???

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Re: Nutgone goes all Lister! (Lister A tank cooled project).

Post by A Lister on Tue Apr 16 2013, 19:15

Oops! Embarassed Might be best to wait until you have the crankshaft out and are ready to put it all back together before you put the oiler ring back. You don't want to distort it, or it won't rotate freely and do its job properly. You can't buy replacement main bearings for these engines, and they are a cast (bearing metal) item with an oiler slot in them rather than just 'shells', so it's worth looking after them!

The next tricky job will probably be getting the flywheel keys out, so it might be a good time to start giving them a twice daily dose of penetrating oil. I bought one of those ebay 'keyhole type' key pullers and used it with good success on mine, but I've heard of a few people struggling and ending up pulling the gib key heads off trying other methods, so might be best to be patient and give the oil time to work before trying any brute force type stuff.

If you need new piston rings, I got mine from Cox and Turner and was pleased with the service and price. Make sure you have the right measurements to hand before you phone them though. They usually have Lister A rings in stock for immediate dispatch too. Oh, and before you take the flywheels off make a note of which way round they are. They should be stamped with a number (1 & 2). If you don't do this and put them back on the wrong way round the timing mark will be ATDC not BTDC, which will cause fun and games when you come to get it running again! And yes, they will run at 20 degrees ATDC... but not well and very hot! Embarassed

The governor can cause a bit of confusion too, so have a good look how it works before you take it to bits. The collar should slide up and down the crankshaft a bit, thus operating the governor lever system and opening and closing the throttle. Quite often they sieze up, so if you are struggling to see how it works then give me a PM shout either here or on the 'other side' and I can put some photos up to hopefully help you. Best of luck and I look forward to watching progress. Smile



Last edited by A Lister on Tue Apr 16 2013, 19:22; edited 2 times in total

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Re: Nutgone goes all Lister! (Lister A tank cooled project).

Post by biomed32uk on Tue Apr 16 2013, 19:18

I have a Broom & Wade twin pot compressor in the workshop that uses this idea, one each end of the crank and a pin through each side of the sump to keep the ring in the oil.

It's not a split ring on them, can't imagine why you would want it split, case it jumps off.

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Re: Nutgone goes all Lister! (Lister A tank cooled project).

Post by nutgone on Tue Apr 16 2013, 20:57

I was hoping to get away without removing the flywheels, but not so sure I will be able to now.

I'm wondering about possibly making a gib key remover, but I prefer the look of the ones you hammer in, rather than the puller type ones.

Oh! Do I really have to take the flywheels of! Sad

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Re: Nutgone goes all Lister! (Lister A tank cooled project).

Post by Stamford24 on Tue Apr 16 2013, 21:15

God your an impatient one! Almost as bad as my mate!! Very Happy He had a basket case Lister TJ delivered. I asked him not to start stripping it until I'd been there and done the before photos. By the time I got there next morning it was already in bits Exclamation

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Re: Nutgone goes all Lister! (Lister A tank cooled project).

Post by Carpmanjay on Tue Apr 16 2013, 21:44

Forgive my ignorance but how does an oil ring work?

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Re: Nutgone goes all Lister! (Lister A tank cooled project).

Post by blackvanman on Tue Apr 16 2013, 21:51

Carpmanjay wrote:Forgive my ignorance but how does an oil ring work?
it rests on the crank, when the crank rotates the ring then rotates, the bottom of the ring is sat in oil, the oil gets carried on the ring as it goes round and deposited on the crank/bearing when it reaches the top Smile

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Re: Nutgone goes all Lister! (Lister A tank cooled project).

Post by nutgone on Tue Apr 16 2013, 22:06

Carpmanjay wrote:Forgive my ignorance but how does an oil ring work?

To go along with what Andy (Blackvanman) says:-
Check out the last pic I posted above & you'll see it. The bottom of the ring should be touching the oil in the trough below (it isn't because the oil level is low, but it would normally be just dipping in oil at the bottom of the ring), the top inside face of the ring is riding directly on the top of the crank shaft, depositing the oil straight onto it, where it will work its way to the bearings.

Here's a pic from above, you can just make out the ring on the right hand side of the picture....



Bloody silly idea if you ask me! Embarassed Embarassed Embarassed

I might weld this one where the split is, if I'm going to remove the flywheels, but I will wait until I see Mark (Stamford24) before I do anything too hasty.

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Re: Nutgone goes all Lister! (Lister A tank cooled project).

Post by Stamford24 on Wed Apr 17 2013, 07:23

Matt,
Look at that casting web. If you weld the ring, you wont be able to fit or remove it. Also welding in situ and trying to clean it up... No think of all the grinding swarf going everywhere. I'll agree that the edges don't look good, I think the later engines used a split ring with a diagonal split. I'll ask the expert, if he can remember Smile

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Re: Nutgone goes all Lister! (Lister A tank cooled project).

Post by Carpmanjay on Wed Apr 17 2013, 08:09

thanks for explaining that guys. i would of thought that years of industrial revolution would of come up with somthing a little more erm complicated i suppose. still if it works then.......

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Re: Nutgone goes all Lister! (Lister A tank cooled project).

Post by nutgone on Wed Apr 17 2013, 09:45

Stamford24 wrote:Matt,
Look at that casting web. If you weld the ring, you wont be able to fit or remove it. Also welding in situ and trying to clean it up... No think of all the grinding swarf going everywhere. I'll agree that the edges don't look good, I think the later engines used a split ring with a diagonal split. I'll ask the expert, if he can remember Smile

I was thinking about putting it back on after the flywheels come off (i they come off).

Anyway, there won't be much happening with this one today, except cleaning around the gib keys with a small wire brush & giving them another spray with my easing oil.

I've got rally entry forms to sort out, I still haven't completed my thread on the Ruston & I've got to continue working on the Ruston (did a bit more last night).

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Re: Nutgone goes all Lister! (Lister A tank cooled project).

Post by nutgone on Thu Apr 18 2013, 18:32

I emailed David Edgington last night & he replied this morning with this....

the 4-inch bore came in 1932 and the caged valves phased out around 52155. What I really suggest you do is invest in a copy of my book The Lister A & B Story (£12 post paid) as in it all this is explained with pictures---you would learn a great deal about these engines. (www.stationaryenginebooks.co.uk. ) Yours has almost certainly been updated--check the face numbers against the plate number (again in my book). This one was supplied with a lighting set on 28/11/25 to J.B.Broww Engineering, Croft House----the rest in illegible but looks like Shirton, E.Steeple.

I have now checked both flywheels & they both still have the original engine number stamped on them, so the bottom end is original. I would guess it has gone back to Lister at some point & been upgraded to the later 4" barrel, with the non-caged valves, & the later crank case breather. It's a shame it hasn't got the original barrel, but it's nice to know it's history, I will make up an exhibit sheet with the engine info, laminate it & give this to the prospective buyer, to go with the engine.

I was also delighted to find out that the 3 way valve on the bottom water connection is an original Lister part & that many have been lost over the years. Today I managed to remove this & take it apart. The bits are now soaking in my parts wash/easing oil solution, along with the mag chain, fuel pump, valves, carb & whatever else I could fit in there. I've finished washing all the Ruston's small parts, so the parts wash tray is now free to take on the beginnings of the Lister's parts.

Did I say I had removed one flywheel??? I can't remember. I am duplicating this thread on another forum, despite my reservations (I was asked to stay on there & decided to give it another chance, although I am already regretting doing so) so I get a bit confused about what I've written where. Anyway, here's a quick pic for you all....



Also, no one told me about this....





A grub screw in the other flywheel. It came out easy enough, but it hasn't helped me to get the gib key out that side. The other one came out easy enough, I used a crow-bar (Gorilla-Bar style, a good shape for gib keys), but the governor side key is proving to be a bit more stubborn, so I will wait for the correct tools to turn up on Saturday.

I've also got the piston, with con rod still attached, soaking in easing solution. The gudgeon pin is seized on the little end, but it will move (partially seized really). I don't know how I'm going to get the pin out. If I could get it moving I would leave it in there, but it's so stiff on the little end, not sure what to do with that really.

Anyway, nothing's really been done on engines today, I've been too busy with other stuff. Might get a bit done tonight though, but it'll be on the Ruston, as that's got priority at the moment.

Oh yes, before I forget, I gap tested the rings today & they're like brand new! One has a .020" gap, the other is around .022-.023". What a shame I broke the top one, I bet they haven't been in there long. Obviously someone else has started to restore this engine before me, not a bad thing.

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Re: Nutgone goes all Lister! (Lister A tank cooled project).

Post by matt86 on Thu Apr 18 2013, 19:34

nutgone wrote:If you check the album you'll see I've done a fair bit already, here's a quick description of works so far....

First thing's first, inspection plate off for a look inside. It turns but feels odd at top of stroke. No tell-tale signs in there though.

Off with the carb & barrel. Then I found the problem, the gudgeon pin is partially seized. So I split the big end & removed the piston & rod as one.

I saw the oil ring was missing....



I believe some people leave these off on some engines these days (I'm told a lot of vintage motorbike enthusiasts do to improve lubrication, especially when there's more than enough compression rings), but I found it, dangling from the crank shaft....



Seems it must have slipped off when the last person put the piston in the barrel, it must've worked it's way down the crank web & round the shaft. I got it out, but it's broken, so there must be another bit in there somewhere. Unless this is some kind of oiling ring which is supposed to be dangling from the crank shaft??? (Please someone tell me if it is & I will put it straight back).

I've also removed the valves (both valve caps were already loose) & stripped the carb down, but haven't taken pics of that yet.

I know now as well as mag & tanks I will need one compression ring & one oil scraper (although I might try it without).


Stop thats a ring oiler its not a piston ring !

i would highly recomomend you leave it there Laughing

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Re: Nutgone goes all Lister! (Lister A tank cooled project).

Post by nutgone on Thu Apr 18 2013, 21:19

matt86 wrote:
Stop thats a ring oiler its not a piston ring !

i would highly recomomend you leave it there Laughing

matt

Too late Matt. Guess i should have asked you first! Embarassed It is still in one piece though, & should go back on OK. I'm going to wait & see if the flywheels come off first though, as I reckon it'll be easier to get it back on that way.

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Re: Nutgone goes all Lister! (Lister A tank cooled project).

Post by matt86 on Fri Apr 19 2013, 08:23

flywheels should come off easy enough just give a soak . The worst bit is getting the gib key out! I have a proper gib key remover. il post a pic of it if you would like? .

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Re: Nutgone goes all Lister! (Lister A tank cooled project).

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