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Nutgone goes all Lister! (Lister A tank cooled project).

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Re: Nutgone goes all Lister! (Lister A tank cooled project).

Post by stationary stu on Thu Apr 25 2013, 12:48

Your doing a good job Nuts getting all these little problems out the way now and not slowing you down while your doing the rebuild.

Great wirk,

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Re: Nutgone goes all Lister! (Lister A tank cooled project).

Post by matt86 on Thu Apr 25 2013, 12:51

soon have the parts painted, just right in this weather.

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Re: Nutgone goes all Lister! (Lister A tank cooled project).

Post by nutgone on Thu Apr 25 2013, 13:12

It is perfect painting weather today, just right. So I've been getting on with some painting, only it's the Ruston I've been painting, not the Lister.

However, before I started I decided to have a go at that pesky piston. I gave it some working last night on the bench & sprayed some more easing oil on it. This morning it was much better, so I thought it was time to have a go at getting that gudgeon pin out. I heated the piston with a blow lamp (gently) & gave the little end some heat as well (as it's pretty tight in there too) & carefully knocked it out with a drift over a specially shaped block of wood.

Glad to say that's one little problem out of the way....



I think at some point a new little end bush has been put in & someone's bruised it, so it's slightly out of shape at one end. I might be able to dress it with my bearing scraper, but really it needs a reamer.

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Re: Nutgone goes all Lister! (Lister A tank cooled project).

Post by nutgone on Thu Apr 25 2013, 22:44

Now that piston is off I decided it was time to shim up the big end bearing. I measured the plastic shims I found in there & reckoned they were about .030", so that was my starting point.

Well, I don't know if anyone here has tried drilling holes in shim steel (or brass as this was), but just as the drill is passing through it decides to grab hold of the shim, rip it out of your grip & twist it round the drill bit, causing a moment of panic as you reach for the off switch & shout expletives as you realise just how expensive shim material is & there goes another bit, all bent & twisted around the drill!!! Embarassed Mad Mad Mad

OK, so it was time to do something drastic. I always drill into a block of wood (unless using the drill vice), all I needed was a thin piece of board & I could clamp it down, sandwiching the shim material & hopefully avoiding any more mishaps. This took some working out as I couldn't use G-cramps, they wouldn't pass under the drill, so I used drywall screws. What a bloody rigmarole! EVERY time I needed to drill some shim I had to get the piece of hardboard, go find 4 short drywall screws, never bothered to charge up the cordless drill "well, it's only a couple of screws (4 actually) I'll probably only need to do it this one time".

OK so it wasn't .030", & I did have to set up my drilling rig again, quite a few times. In the end, what I did was left all the bits & pieces out, ready to use again, that way I knew I wouldn't need them again (sod's law & all that). Well it worked. I made a bit of a mess & used up quite a lot of shim steel (& brass, but I ended up with steel in the end)....



But I now have shims to the value of .0095" (yes, that's right, 9.5 thou) in there & I "blued" the crank & scraped a couple of tiny high spots off the bearing shell, now I have a pretty perfect big end (I can hear you lot sniggering from here at that, "perfect big end" Laughing ).

So, nowhere near the .030" I thought Shocked scratch . Oh well.

Now my dad tells me the correct way to overcome the drill snatching is to re-grind the cutting face. Apparently what's happening is the drill is, in a sense, too sharp. But he didn't bother to show me how to do it.

I also used my bearing scraper on the little end & now the pin is a perfect fit.

Guess I'd best get on with the crank case clean-up job then, it's only that & the broken throttle rod to sort, obviously source a mag & some paint, & I'm on my way.

Not sure what I'm doing about petrol & water tanks yet, got a few different ideas on those just now.

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Re: Nutgone goes all Lister! (Lister A tank cooled project).

Post by matt86 on Thu Apr 25 2013, 22:54

looks like you have been busy.. regarding big end shims I been there many times and I know exactly what you mean.. can take you ages to get it just right. matt

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Re: Nutgone goes all Lister! (Lister A tank cooled project).

Post by Stamford24 on Fri Apr 26 2013, 06:33

Do you mean 95 thou? 9.5 sounds very thin and doubt you would have shim that size?

As for drills, yeah there's a myriad of different shapes and styles. Try looking up drill nomenclature Exclamation Laughing

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Re: Nutgone goes all Lister! (Lister A tank cooled project).

Post by nutgone on Fri Apr 26 2013, 10:57

Nope, it's 9.5 thou. It's got a 5, a 2.5 & a 2 in each side (or should say .005", .0025" & .002" shims each side).

I tried a .010" brass shim in there but there was movement. The crank pin isn't the best I've seen (a couple of ridges), but is fine for a stationary engine, especially a 600rpm stationary engine, & I've seen a lot worse.

Of course, the beauty of using a few different shims on each side is that in the future, as the bearing wears, you can take out the smallest shim & re-scrape the bearing to suit. I make it sound so easy. Laughing

Anyway, I'm happy now it's all together & fits nicely. Very Happy

Now I've got to leave it alone & get cracking on the Stuart Turner. I need to finish something & get it sold before the end of May, otherwise I will be going to my first rally with no money & having to loan my dad's car to get there. Whatever happens though, I WILL be going!

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Re: Nutgone goes all Lister! (Lister A tank cooled project).

Post by nutgone on Sat Apr 27 2013, 23:08

I welded up that broken throttle rod today. I had the welder out to weld a T bar onto a broken stud on the Stuart Turner (that didn't work, it just twisted the stud off flush with the face! Mad Embarassed ), but the throttle rod looks OK. I dressed it up a bit on the bench grinder as I had put far too much weld on it, & I've still got to do the final shaping with the dremmel to make it look nice, but I reckon it's OK.

I will take a picture of it tomorrow & post it up. I really need to try & concentrate my efforts on one engine at the moment though (as well as finishing the Ruston off, but that's almost there) as I could really do with selling one before the rally at the end of May. It's not looking likely though, firstly it'll have to sit on eBay for a week, then I will have to wait a few days for the buyer (if there is one) to pick it up, which really gives me less than 2 weeks to get it done, so it ain't gona be this one, but I will still be working on this one, there's plenty to do.

I wouldn't mind hanging on to this one for a little while if I can. Might be nice to have a Lister for a bit.

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Re: Nutgone goes all Lister! (Lister A tank cooled project).

Post by stationary stu on Sun Apr 28 2013, 13:22

Nuts iagree I couldn't restore an engine and not do a few rallies with it, your problem is you need some cash input to help you with other engines.

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Re: Nutgone goes all Lister! (Lister A tank cooled project).

Post by nutgone on Sun Apr 28 2013, 13:52

stationary stu wrote:......your problem is you need some cash input to help you with other engines.

Stu.

Yeah, & the car running costs, & the caravan storage rent, & the costs of attending the rallies..... The list goes on, but we've all got much the same & we all find a way to do it. I might end up borrowing my dad's car to do this first rally & sorting my car out after. That would let the pressure off a bit, the option is there anyway, so even if I don't finish an engine & sell it, I can still attend the rally. I've entered the Kohler & the Scott, both of which are running & ready to show.

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Re: Nutgone goes all Lister! (Lister A tank cooled project).

Post by nutgone on Tue Apr 30 2013, 20:57

I decided to have a look at my red oxide primer yesterday, it was skinned over, again! Rolling Eyes

I broke it up & stirred it in, but it was really lumpy. TBH there wasn't much left, but I wasn't about to throw it away. I remembered something Kev said about filtering it through an old sock.

Well what bloody mess I got in, & all for half a jar of red oxide! Rolling Eyes Oh well, waste not want not.

Anyway, it meant I could do some of this....



As promised, here's some pics of the repaired throttle rod....







Not bad for a beginner (well, someone trying to re-learn old forgotten skills). It will look fine when it's on there.

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Re: Nutgone goes all Lister! (Lister A tank cooled project).

Post by Smitty on Wed May 01 2013, 04:09

Good job Nut,

NEVER give up! I'm enjoying the process. At this rate I'll have that Lister home about the end of May, keep up the good work! Very Happy
Nice thing about this thread is that it will prepare me for when I latch on to one myself.
I'll be somewhat familliar with one by the time you get it all sorted.

Cheers, John.

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Re: Nutgone goes all Lister! (Lister A tank cooled project).

Post by nutgone on Wed May 01 2013, 22:27

Cheers John, I'll remember to put a few more detail shots in. I used to pack a lot more engineering detail into my threads, including some good close-up pictures, a look at my first Tarpen & my Homelite generator threads will confirm that. I think I've got a little lazy with the detail stuff of late. Also my latest phone camera really isn't up to the job (I might have to return to the old one & plug it into the computer each night to upload before I download Smile ).


Now, can anyone tell me the correct paint code for the colour this engine should be painted? I'm assuming it's Mid-Brunswick Green, but I don't know the code. I suspect it would be easy enough to find, but it would be easier if someone just happened to know it off the top of their head.

I went into my local paint shop yesterday (Tuesday) & asked for it by name, the chap in there said he would see what he could do when his boss got back. He wrote the details down & took my number, saying he would call me when it was in, but as with nearly all these companies I doubt they'll ever call me. For a start I think it's their policy not to order in unless it's been paid for in advance. I expect I will have to go in there again with the correct code before I get anything out of them.

You never know, they might surprise me with a call tomorrow or Friday, saying it's in, but I'm not holding my breath. Neutral

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Re: Nutgone goes all Lister! (Lister A tank cooled project).

Post by matt86 on Wed May 01 2013, 22:34

mid brunswick green code is BS381 226 i do believe .

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Re: Nutgone goes all Lister! (Lister A tank cooled project).

Post by nutgone on Wed May 01 2013, 23:10

Cheers Matt, that should speed things up a bit. :thumbup:

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Re: Nutgone goes all Lister! (Lister A tank cooled project).

Post by A Lister on Thu May 02 2013, 10:47

The Lister A was usually painted in Mid-Brunswick Green (unless it was one of the 'war finish' ones that were reputedly a lighter green due to wartime paint shortages). Fresh MB Green paint will probably look a lighter shade than any original surviving paint on your engine... I read that apparently oil based paint had a tendency to darken with age; add to that years of heat, oil and grime and any surviving paint is probably likely to look darker and more matt than it once did. Also, I've read that paint batches tended to vary a bit in shade in those days anyway, so it wasn't an exact science.

You can get the 'Lister Junior' tank cooled transfer set from Kelsey Publishing (who publish SE Magazine), make sure you order the right direction arrows for the rotation of the flywheels though! If you are as useless as I am at applying water-slide transfers then it might be best to get 2 sets as I usually make a pig's ear of putting at least one of them on! Hope this is useful.

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Re: Nutgone goes all Lister! (Lister A tank cooled project).

Post by nutgone on Thu May 02 2013, 11:32

Cheers Jules. I have some Lister transfers somewhere. I will have to dig them out & see what I've got.

Well, I'm afraid I will have to take it all back & apologise for my comments & assumptions on the paint shop. They called me about an hour ago to tell me my paint was in. Shocked

So here's a big thanks you to Decorator's Warehouse in Hailsham for restoring my faith in the suppliers business. cheers :thumbup: Cool

I just hope they got the colour right (I expect they did). & it's the usual Bradite ME52 Fastrac Gloss Enamel. Very good paint, but I wouldn't recommend their matching primer, it's too thick & sticks to the brush. I use Teamac Red Oxide Primer, it's very good stuff, but always needs a really good stir-up (which is a good sign for a primer, means it's got a lot of heavy solids, usually zinc or some other rust inhibiting metal).

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Re: Nutgone goes all Lister! (Lister A tank cooled project).

Post by nutgone on Thu May 02 2013, 13:33

I'm back! Very Happy

I got the paint, on the tin it just says "226" which is the paint code for mid brunswick, but it looks dark to me. Maybe it's just what my idea of a Lister green should look like, I always thought they were lighter (told you I wasn't a Lister man).

here it is....



Here it is against the Stuart Turner green (which is a dark bronze green IIRC)....



Here it is against the Ruston Hornsby green, which is known as Lincoln Green....



& here they all are together....



Not forgetting, of course, the Lister part is still wet paint (mind you, the Stuart part was still tacky as well). & it's only a single coat over red oxide primer.

I just thought Listers were lighter. Anyone have any thoughts???

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Re: Nutgone goes all Lister! (Lister A tank cooled project).

Post by nutgone on Thu May 02 2013, 13:37

From what I can tell, those pictures are actually a very accurate rendition of what I am seeing in real life. But other computer monitors may tell a different story. Still most of us know what the Stuart green should look like, so that's a good comparison.

At the end of the day it doesn't really matter. That's the tin I have bought, I haven't got any more money now, so that's what is going on. But i would be interested to know what others think.

What I'm hoping for is all you Lister nuts to come along & say "Yep, looks fine to me". My problem is; a distinct lack of Listers to compare it to! Laughing

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Re: Nutgone goes all Lister! (Lister A tank cooled project).

Post by A Lister on Thu May 02 2013, 18:53

It's hard to tell from the photos, as light and different computer monitors may make it look different. I might be tempted to give that crankcase door another couple of coats and see how it looks in daylight outdoors before painting the rest of it?

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Re: Nutgone goes all Lister! (Lister A tank cooled project).

Post by Stamford24 on Thu May 02 2013, 19:10

I believe Stuarts were Mid Bronze Green, Deep Bronze Green is very dark. I'd say that looks a little too blue to me. If Jules Lister A is Mid Brunswick just look at the difference. Code is right though.

Actually just having a quick scan through the BS381 colour chart (BTW I looked at more than one website) I'd say your one is closer and Jules A looks more like 225 Light Brunswick, but that is just looking at a colour chart. I know I ordered some Olive Green and what turned up looked nothing like the colour chart!


Last edited by Stamford24 on Thu May 02 2013, 19:17; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Added Info)

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Re: Nutgone goes all Lister! (Lister A tank cooled project).

Post by A Lister on Thu May 02 2013, 21:12

Stamford24 wrote:I believe Stuarts were Mid Bronze Green, Deep Bronze Green is very dark. I'd say that looks a little too blue to me. If Jules Lister A is Mid Brunswick just look at the difference. Code is right though.

Actually just having a quick scan through the BS381 colour chart (BTW I looked at more than one website) I'd say your one is closer and Jules A looks more like 225 Light Brunswick, but that is just looking at a colour chart. I know I ordered some Olive Green and what turned up looked nothing like the colour chart!

The 'icon' photo of my Lister A was taken with flash, so appears lighter/brighter than it is, which is why I didn't post a photo of it as a reference. I had a look through the photos I've posted on here before of my engines and to be honest, none of them really look quite the same shade as they do in real life (to my eyes anyway)! I think that's the problem, you can't really go off how engine colours look on photos.

Maybe this next photo is most like how it actually looks (to my eyes) in hazy sunshine. Same tin of MB Green paint, different day, camera and daylight conditions (goodness only knows if it will look anything like 'real life' by the time it's been over the internet and appeared on your computer screens though!). And they say the camera never lies!




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Re: Nutgone goes all Lister! (Lister A tank cooled project).

Post by nutgone on Thu May 02 2013, 22:19

I meant to change my post there Mark, I remembered it's Mid-Bronze Green on the Stuarts, not Deep Bronze Green.

I dunno about this paint, The thing is, Lister probably turned out different colour engines every time they had a shift change (bit like BSA motorcycles, if any of you have read my little quote about them in a thread I wrote on the subject in "The Shed" a few weeks back, which came from a factory worker, & like Stuart Turner engines, where some of the engine builders mixed their own shades so they would know who built which engine should they ever come back, that came from a factory worker as well!)

I'm going to go ahead with it regardless. It will probably look different when the whole engine is covered in the stuff. But, what I will do (just for you lot Very Happy ) is clean up some of the best bits of remaining paint on the engine & take some more photos. I reckon it's pretty close to the original stuff, but I only had a little look, & that was with a piece on the workshop floor, under the shadow of the bench. I will clean off what I can (when the brake & clutch cleaner arrives tomorrow), wipe it over with some fresh oil, to restore the shine, & do some comparisons in the daylight for you. I will also give that plate another coat in the meantime.

Like I say, when the whole engine is covered with 2 good coats & allowed to dry, it will probably look far more correct in my eyes. Maybe it doesn't help having the other greens around for comparison, but I still reckon it's just a little bit too blue.

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Re: Nutgone goes all Lister! (Lister A tank cooled project).

Post by Stamford24 on Fri May 03 2013, 07:43

The holy grail of exact colour matching is a fraught subject. Very difficult if not impossible to achieve. As you say Matt, colour variation was common although in the case of a big company like Lister's, I suspect they had there own painting department and probably several paint makers employed. I always chuckle at this, my Grandad in later life, after sheer hard work had worn him out, was a paint maker and colour matcher for a local garage. Trouble was he was nearly blind by this stage! Certainly couldn't drive anymore. Just one of those little jobs that men did when they were incapable of doing anything else. Shame I never met him, he died a long time before I was born but I'm sure his genes live on in me Smile Anyway back on track I believe the BS381C standard wasn't adopted until post war so what we call Mid Brunswick, Deep Bronze Green etc. might not be exact to the original colour used. I know that Hartop engines were painted a colour called Olive Green made by Eagle Brand and bought from the local Ironmongers. It relates to nothing like the Olive Green used in the BS range.

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Re: Nutgone goes all Lister! (Lister A tank cooled project).

Post by stationary stu on Fri May 03 2013, 12:18

Every paint colour is an exact match to what's left in the tin and that's about as close as you'll get. Every manufacturer is a different shade so just paint what you think and always keep a little to touch up as no other paint will be an exact match.
It's already been stated on this forum that Lister changed there shade all the time as they bought there paint supplies by the cheapest manufacturer not to the best matching mid brunswick green paint.

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