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lister model a 3hp

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lister model a 3hp

Post by peterjd on Fri May 03 2013, 22:17

hi im new to this so please be paitent.

this week i found what i beleive to be a lister model a 3hp (tank cooled).
it was under a load of bramble and is ceased. the tappet springs look very corroded but generally i didnt notice any big cracks etc.

firstly is it generally posible to free these engine up or would it be a case of just salvaging what it can.
secondly how heavy are they compared to a model d
and finally how do i put a picture of it on here. i have tried but must be doing something wrong.

regards pete

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Re: lister model a 3hp

Post by nutgone on Fri May 03 2013, 22:45

Think you need to be a member for 7 days before you can post pictures, but you might find an admin can put them on if you email them?

I've just bought a tank cooled A type & I reckon it's easier to handle than the D types, probably around the same weight, but there's a lot more to get hold of & you can roll them on the flywheels.

You might be able to free this one off, you'll need to be patient though. If you mix yourself some easing oil, usually use some kerosene/paraffin mixed with diesel, make sure to add some automatic transmission fluid (ATF) or failing that use some power steering fluid (PSF) (the red stuff), I've found this has excellent penetrating & easing qualities. When I had a Kohler 4 cylinder engine that had been seized for 35 years it freed it off in 24 hours! (but don't necessarily expect that, these bigger engines can take weeks to free off), it does help to get the right mix though, I reckon my home made stuff is better than anything you buy in the shops. Plus you can add anything to it, like white spirit, petrol, oil, 2-stroke oil. & you can use it in a spray bottle to clean small parts & free off all the nuts & bolts (basically spray it all over the whole engine, preferably a few times over a few days, if it's bad).

The main problem with freeing off one of these is you can't get to the top of the piston, as it has a fixed head. I would do most of the work from the flywheels, but there are others here who've been through this, so they might be able to help. But make yourself up some of that easing oil, it's about 50/50 diesel/paraffin(or kerosene) then add a dash (or good squirt) of the ATF or PSF. After that just add whatever you like, like a cup of white spirit, that usually helps, & just a dash of oil, if you like (not too much though, or it'll make it too thick) I find 2-stroke oil works well in mine. The ATF & PSF are very worth while adding though, a must really, it's my (not so) secret ingredient & I've had really good results since I started adding it.

Anyway, have a look at my thread (Nutgone Goes All Lister) in this section. There's probably more Lister A threads if you go back a bit. If you really want the pics added, you could email them to me, but wait & see what the admins say first.

You've come to the right place though, they really are a friendly bunch here & always willing to help where we can.

welcome sign aboard! :thumbup:

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Re: lister model a 3hp

Post by Smitty on Fri May 03 2013, 22:53

Welcome peter,

All what he said!

A good bunch and willing to share!, Regards, John.

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Re: lister model a 3hp

Post by peterjd on Fri May 03 2013, 22:57

thanks nutgone

i will see what admin come up with about the photos. also just realised you cant be to far from me as im in east sussex to. not sure when i will be able to get on with the lister but its to good an opertunity to miss as its going for free ( will supply a few bottles of harveys to say thanks)

thanks john. it may be nearly mid night but i feel welcome already

regards pete

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Re: lister model a 3hp

Post by nutgone on Fri May 03 2013, 23:03

I'm near Eastbourne (Hailsham area to be exact). You can't beat a freebie, even if it is seized! cheers

Anyway, it's far too late for me. I'll check in again in the morning.

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Re: lister model a 3hp

Post by Stamford24 on Sat May 04 2013, 08:28

If its seized in the bore (most likely) then its best to leave everything on and work on freeing the rings first. See if it will move just a bit on the flywheels, that will tell you if it is just the rings that are stuck. First thing to do in my opinion would be to get the crankcase door off and have a look in there, if the bottom of the bore looks very rusty, you will need to clean that off before the piston will move. Split the big end and take the pot off now you can access the underside of the piston and bore easily to clean that rust off. Next take the valve caps out, that's the brass plugs on the top. They will take some shifting so its best to refit the cylinder on the engine to give you something to hold onto. Soak them with easing oil first. Ideally you want to heat them up with a propane torch to get them nice and hot. You then need a piece of inch (think that's the right size) square bar to go down in the plug and put a large spanner on it. Now hit the spanner with a hammer, short sharp blows to crack the joint. Once its moved start tipping more easing fluid on it to work into the threads and eventually they should come out. Now you can get copious amounts of easing oil in the bore from the top. Then its just a case of hoping the oil will penetrate into the rings. You can try a bit of heat on the underside but be careful of the rod and gudgeon pin. Hope this helps point you in the right direction. Oh and another thing check the mains, if there's excessive up and down movement (there's usually some) you might consider it past its best as these are whitemetal bushes and will be expensive to replace.
And welcome Pete to the Sussex Club on the Internet Smile , I'm a bit further over in West Sussex.

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Re: lister model a 3hp

Post by Stamford24 on Sat May 04 2013, 09:20

BTW if anyone is in the Hastings area today, Brede Pumping Station is open and will also have a display of Stationary Engines.

http://www.bredesteamgiants.co.uk/

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Re: lister model a 3hp

Post by nutgone on Sat May 04 2013, 10:31

So you might have to take the head/barrel (with piston inside) off & on a few times, but it'll be worth it.

Once it's got a bit of movement I would use the flywheels to help get it moving. It shouldn't cause any harm to the big end bearings, they put up with much more punishment than that every time the engine fires.

So Peter, where abouts are you in Sussex? Don't worry if you don't want to say on open forum, you can always give a rough area, or PM me, or just ignore me Wink

That Brede Pumping Station is very good aparently. My dad went on a vintage motorcycle club run out there back in the winter. I was supposed to be looking out for their open day, but as usual it got forgotten. Shame I won't be able to make it today.

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Re: lister model a 3hp

Post by stationary stu on Sat May 04 2013, 12:12

Nice find Pete, I think my first job would be cutting down the brambles makes work on the engine so scratch free. Very Happy

If you want to send me some pics I'll post them for you or open a photo bucket account and that should allow you to add them yourself.

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Re: lister model a 3hp

Post by peterjd on Sat May 04 2013, 12:37

Hope to and get it this afternoon so will either send some pictures or create a photo bucket whatever one of those is.

Hope to message later

Pete

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Re: lister model a 3hp

Post by stationary stu on Sat May 04 2013, 12:46

Here's a link to photobucket, even if you don't use it, it's still handy for viewing other peoples pics or videos.

http://photobucket.com/

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Re: lister model a 3hp

Post by Stamford24 on Sat May 04 2013, 20:47

Brede is also open Monday! Just wont be any visiting Stationary Engines. If I feel up to it might take a look but tomorrow is a long day over to another Waterworks, this time in Hampshire. Twyford near Winchester to be precise for their Spring Rally and to return the 2PS just rebuilt. So if anyone's around Winchester tomorrow drop in and say hello.

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Re: lister model a 3hp

Post by peterjd on Sat May 04 2013, 21:18

hi nuts im in crowborough so not to far away.

thanks stu. i have uploaded some photos to photobucket but dont know how to link it to here or what to do next. do i have to create a link or something like that. maybe this is why listers are appealing. not a computer in sight.

well i went and picked it up this afternoon. pleased to not find any obvious external cracks but lets just say its more of a water feature than an engine at the moment. ceased solid. took off the bottom oil cap (not sure thats what its called) and i created a lovely little fountain.
i suppose at least its water tight.

so whats next

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Re: lister model a 3hp

Post by nutgone on Sat May 04 2013, 22:25

What you are looking for on Phtotbucket is a link known as the "IMG Code", if you highlight this code by clicking on it (the whole code should turn blue) then click the right button on your mouse, up will come a list of selections, click on "Copy", that means the highlighted code is now copied to your computer temporarily (you really need both your photobucket account & this forum open on separate pages or tabs at the same time for this to work properly). Then go to the post you are writing, where you want the picture to appear you now hold your mouse (cursor) roughly over this spot where the text input cursor (flashing little line thingy) should be showing (the picture will appear under whatever you have just written, so it's best to press "return" once or twice to create a little gap), click the right hand button again & up will come the list. This time you need to click on "paste" & the code should appear, with all the needed bits & bobs. (It's best to press "return" once or twice again, to create another little gap before writing again or putting another picture in).

There are other ways, for instance instead of bringing up the little menu & clicking on "Copy" & "Paste" all the time, you can use the short cut keys, this is where you press the "Ctrl" key (bottom left) along with "C" for copy, or "Ctrl" along with "V" for paste (C for Copy, & the V is the button next to it, copy-paste). You still need to highlight the code to "Copy" & have the cursor in the right place to "Paste".

There is also a little box above where I am typing this now which has a picture symbol in it, you can click on this & a little box will appear where you can input the "Direct code", also available from your photobucket pictures. This will also put the pictures in for you, very much like if you were to use the "IMG Code" option above, it just adds a few bits & bobs that aren't on the "IMG Code" for you.

Also, with Photobucket, it's worth starting a main album, maybe called "Stationary Engines" then each subsequent engine you buy or work on (oh yes, there will be others if the bug bites) can be put in it's own "Sub Album" of that main album.

You can also make up other albums for anything else, like maybe a specific holiday or trip you've been on. Have a look at my Photobucket account if you like, here's what I hope is a link to it, all the albums & sub albums should be listed down the left hand side (the main albums will have a little arrow next to them, click the arrow to expand the list & show the sub albums)....

http://s682.photobucket.com/user/nutgone_matt/library/?sort=3&page=1

I hope all this helps a bit, & doesn't confuse you any further. Laughing

As for the engine, you really need to get it home, find yourself a good place to work on it & get the crank case inspection panel off (the crank case "Door" that was mentioned earlier, just another name for it) & have a good look inside. Post up some pics & we'll see what we can offer in the way of assistance.

BTW, I have other plans tomorrow, so couldn't make Brede Pumping Station anyway. I'm off to the Amberly Chalk Pits open air museum, it's the vintage motorbike day tomorrow. Sadly I don't think they have a stationary engine day any more, they did & it is a fantastic venue, but they don't any more AFAIK.

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Re: lister model a 3hp

Post by peterjd on Sun May 05 2013, 17:34

well i managed to have a tinker this afternoon. crankcase inspection plate came off with suprising ease. it was very orange inside but from what i can see only surface rust and not crusty like some of the external bolts are. they might actually be better called lumps rather than bolts. i washed the crankcase out with a hose to flush out all the oil water and gunk. didnt feel right putting a hose in a engine but i figured its been sitting in water for years so a rinse isnt going to hurt.
have had the exhaust and carb off also and got some pentrating fluid in there.
it looks like some one has cut the mixture wheel off the carb. just a long brass thread with a needle on the end.
the rods which run from the carb to the further fly wheel are very corroded and a couple might need replacing.
have given inside the crankcase a good soak of fluid so hopefully this will work its way in and help free it off.
there is no movement anywhere.

will try and put more photos in photobucket and make them easy to find.

hope youve had a good day

regards pete

ps just something yo ubrought up stamford. when heating metals to free them off do you heat the object you want freed or the piece it is stuck in or both if that makes sense.

pps i have created an album on photobucket called lister water feature. its there. its public but if i sign out and search for it it wont find it.

soory probably being really think. good job i dont need a computer to catch rats and moles etc

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Re: lister model a 3hp

Post by Stamford24 on Mon May 06 2013, 09:50

peterjd wrote:ps just something yo ubrought up stamford. when heating metals to free them off do you heat the object you want freed or the piece it is stuck in or both if that makes sense.

The idea is to create unequal expansion and break the rust seal. Simply pouring loads of penetrating oil on rusted parts does not free them, you need to break the seal first, then apply. So in this case, as the piston is the smaller item and will take less heat to expand it, heat that. There will of course be heat transfer into the cylinder as well. Once hot leave to cool a little and then apply your fluid. Watch out as it may spit and smoke, the thermal shock of cooling can also help break the seal. Then try tapping the piston with something soft, wood is best, and see if it moves slightly.You may have to repeat this cycle several times. Don't push the piston right to the top. Not sure now but there maybe an area where the rings could pop out into and then your seriously stuffed!

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Re: lister model a 3hp

Post by nutgone on Mon May 06 2013, 10:09

I would've thought you'd be best trying to pull the piston down with the aid of the flywheels. That's how I remember freeing off my old Lister L (a long time ago). I think I soaked that in red diesel for a couple of weeks first. When the piston got down past BDC I lifted the barrel & put wooden blocks underneath & carried on using the flywheels until it was out. If the barrel is loose, with wooden blocks underneath, you can use the inertia of the flywheels to help jar the piston into some sort of movement. But it must have wooden blocks or something like that between the barrel & the crank case, slamming bare cast iron against bare cast iron is not a good idea, even just some wooden batten in there would do.

Also, a lot of people on here like to heat the piston from the bottom (gently though, you'd be surprised sometimes how little heat is actually required, stuff doesn't need to be glowing red, in fact I've had stuff freed off before using heat where they were still just about cool enough to handle, you can always make it hotter). But if you have your easing oil in the top, you can still heat from the bottom of the piston.

Where to apply the head really depends on a lot of different factors. Like Stamford24 says, we are basically looking for movement. heat will expand metal. In a case like this you would ideally want to heat the barrel, so that expands, but heating the piston should achieve much the same thing. It's the fixed head that gets in the way here.

If you were trying to get a steel bolt out of a cast aluminium case, you would want to apply very direct heat just to the aluminium case, as this will expand quicker than the steel.

But I don't necessarily think just putting easing oil in is no good. I never used any heat on my old Lister L, just diesel & brute force (& I was only 14 at the time). I also never used any heat on my Kohler, just a good penetrating oil, & that had been seized for over 35 years. A good penetrating oil should, in time, break the seal for you, or at the very least it should weaken it. But you need those penetrating ingredients in there to do the job. The main difference with this one is the lack of access from the top. All those other engines I was able to take the head off, make a piece of wood just the right size, & give it a few good sharp blows. This one you can't do that, but you do have those flywheels on your side.

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Re: lister model a 3hp

Post by stationary stu on Mon May 06 2013, 11:01

I can't find you on photo bucket, what name did you use and I'll see if I can find it that way.

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Re: lister model a 3hp

Post by peterjd on Mon May 06 2013, 11:58

Thanks guys. That has explained it well. I knew metal expands when heated so thought it would make it even tighter but it makes sense it would break a seal of rust. The biggest problem I think I'm going to face is there is no movement in fly wheels or piston so which end do I start.

Stu. Photobucket name is pe1ma2an3ca4. Stupid I know but thought it had to be a secure name so made it complicated but then realised it dosnt need to be. This weekend has really confirmed the fact that I am a dinosaur as far as computer knowledge is concerned.

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Re: lister model a 3hp

Post by Stamford24 on Mon May 06 2013, 20:14

In that case, I think I'd try splitting the big end first and lifting the pot. See if you have any movement then, both in the rod (small end) and the crank. Be careful as it may be the cams that are seized. Sounds like you may have to strip the bottom end apart first to free that off and then refit the pot to get the piston out. Best of Luck.

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Re: lister model a 3hp

Post by peterjd on Mon May 06 2013, 20:42

thanks stamford. the piston is nearly at the bottom of its travel so do you think this would be out of the pot. the water as far as i can work out has got in through a hole between and in front of the valves. sorry not sure what this bit is called and cant decribe it as it looks like it came up from the titanic. if you lift it out you can look in below the valves and see a gear of some sort.

have got pictures of this but still strugling with photobucket. will probably clear the photos and start again.

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Re: lister model a 3hp

Post by Stamford24 on Mon May 06 2013, 21:11

That's the crankcase breather. Do you have the serial number? that will help give us an idea of features. You might like to send that off to David Edgington, Enginbooks@aol.com requesting its date of manufacture.
Cant find you on photobucket yet.

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Re: lister model a 3hp

Post by nutgone on Mon May 06 2013, 21:22

I can't seem to find you on Photobucket either.

Anyway, the hole near the valves is the crank case breather, there's an old type & a new type, it looks like you have no type.

It's probably a good thing that the piston is near the bottom, this means you have less travel involved to get it out. Make sure the barrel is empty before putting your easing oil in there as if there's water in there too the water will sink to the bottom.

I might be able to get out your way at some point & have a look, but it's a bit difficult at the moment as my car is off the road & probably will be until July now, or at least some point in June (I let the MOT & tax lapse & now the insurance is about to run out as well, so it's going to be an expensive job to get it back on the road, luckily it doesn't need any money spending on it mechanically). I do get to borrow my dad's car sometimes though, but it's never an easy task. I suppose I could come out some time with my brother, he's a forum member & enthusiast, we often go on these outings together as even when my car is on the road I can rarely afford to put any petrol in it! Laughing

You didn't find this engine out near Forest Row by any chance??? (long shot, but there was one out there in a hedge many years ago, & it was in a pretty sorry state even back then, at least I think it was Forest Row, I seem to remember it being on a llama farm).

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Re: lister model a 3hp

Post by Smitty on Tue May 07 2013, 02:34

This is going to be an interesting thread to follow, I just know I'm going to learn from it!
Carry on lads, make it live cheers
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Re: lister model a 3hp

Post by peterjd on Tue May 07 2013, 08:05

Right. Serial number is 228565. Spec is a64 3hp@600 rpm. I will try again with photobucket later tonight.

Nuts how would I find you on photobucket. This might show me where I have gone wrong

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