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Penetrating/release oil

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Penetrating/release oil

Post by Pippin on Tue May 07 2013, 03:51

Anyone got any views as to the best penetrating oil to buy? PlusGas seems to be the one that pops up or is there anything better? I've got a snapped off top cover bolt on my Lister D. About half inch sticking out of casting. May have to resort to heat/drilling eventually but thought I'd soak it in something before I get to that stage. Thanks in anticipation.
John Smile

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Re: Penetrating/release oil

Post by blackvanman on Tue May 07 2013, 09:18

Pippin wrote:Anyone got any views as to the best penetrating oil to buy? PlusGas seems to be the one that pops up or is there anything better? I've got a snapped off top cover bolt on my Lister D. About half inch sticking out of casting. May have to resort to heat/drilling eventually but thought I'd soak it in something before I get to that stage. Thanks in anticipation.
John Smile
Heat the casting around the stud, then give the stud a couple of clouts with a medium sized hammer, heat the casting again then use some paraffin on the stud, give more shock with hammer then a bit more paraffin, use Vice Grips on the stud, as tight as you can get them, don't use cheap mole grips, they will slip and chew the stud Smile

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Re: Penetrating/release oil

Post by stationary stu on Tue May 07 2013, 11:07

Most people have there own views on what they think is best from plus gas to GT85 but the only thing that is not that suitable is WD40, yes it's good but is no use for this kind of work. Some members even mix there own using diesel, oil, paraffin in fact anything they can think of goes in the pot.
Good luck with removing the stud, the best thing you need to do this job is patients, take your time and don't try to get it out in an hour when it's been seized in for years.

Stu.

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Re: Penetrating/release oil

Post by stationary stu on Tue May 07 2013, 11:45

I've moved this post to a more suitable location. Please check out New Projects/Restorations.

Stu.

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Re: Penetrating/release oil

Post by neil f on Thu May 09 2013, 20:18

Pippin wrote:Anyone got any views as to the best penetrating oil to buy? PlusGas seems to be the one that pops up or is there anything better? I've got a snapped off top cover bolt on my Lister D. About half inch sticking out of casting. May have to resort to heat/drilling eventually but thought I'd soak it in something before I get to that stage. Thanks in anticipation.
John Smile

If there's half an inch sticking out you should be able to thread the stub with a suitable sized die. Next, screw on a couple of nuts, lock them up real tight against each other with a couple of spanners, then use the lower one to unscrew the stub. If it won't move, alternately tighten it with the top nut and loosen it with lower one and keep working them back and forth until the stub starts to move.

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Re: Penetrating/release oil

Post by Biggusdannus on Thu May 09 2013, 21:39

What I tend to do when I have a broken bolt or a really stubborn stud is clean all around it with a wire wheel. I then heat just the protruding part of the stud up with a blowtorch till its nearly red and then drip some engine oil around the base of the stud. As the stud cools the oil travels down into the threaded part and all being well it should unscrew. Small stillsons or good quality mole grips are ideal tools for this.

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Re: Penetrating/release oil

Post by nutgone on Thu May 09 2013, 23:07

Make your own penetrating/easing oil, it's better than all the shop bought stuff.

Haven't tried PlusGas recently, but it always used to be rubbish. Best of the shop bought ones I've ever used (by far) is GT85, but even that has it's bad points (it tends to dry up quickly & is a thicker liquid than WD40).

My home made mix is roughly 50/50 diesel & either kerosene or paraffin (preferably kero). About a litre or two of each into a 5 litre container. add a dash of oil (preferably 2 stroke oil, but a dash of engine oil is good as well, a dash is about half a cup I suppose, but you'll soon do it by guess work) then (the secret ingredient) add some ATF (automatic transmission fluid). PSF (power steering fluid) will do just as well, the red stuff. Add a good dash (like a cup full, not too much as it's expensive stuff & you will need to top up from time to time) then top off with a good glug of white spirit. (about half a litre depending on size of mix).

Don't go too heavy on the oils as they thicken it. You can also add petrol & methylated spirits, or even brake & clutch cleaner, but, although they help to thin it out, these thinner liquids tend to evaporate off quite quickly.

I use mine as a parts wash as well. I parts wash over a tray & filter what's left back into the main container. (2 or 3 stage filter start with rag, then move onto tissue, in a large funnel, this takes a long time though).

This mix freed of my Kohler 4 cylinder engine in 24hrs, all 4 cylinders, which had been stuck for over 35 years. It also shifts the grease & muck on engine parts. If they are to be painted it's best to rinse them off with brake & clutch cleaner (buy in 5 litre containers & use a spray bottle, it's much cheaper than cans) or any other spirit type cleaner (panel wipe, carb cleaner, contact cleaner, they're all pretty much the same thing) to remove the oily residue.

I'm going to have to copy & paste this as I've written it so many times for different people. If you are going to make your own, this is good stuff. A recipe which has been formulated over the past 10 or so engine restorations. Very Happy
That's what we do on this forum, we pass on these things to help others out. We do all the hard work, so you don't have to Laughing Very Happy Wink

Hope this helps a bit.

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Re: Penetrating/release oil

Post by nutgone on Thu May 09 2013, 23:15

blackvanman wrote:
Heat the casting around the stud, then give the stud a couple of clouts with a medium sized hammer, heat the casting again then use some paraffin on the stud, give more shock with hammer then a bit more paraffin, use Vice Grips on the stud, as tight as you can get them, don't use cheap mole grips, they will slip and chew the stud Smile

What he said, but I would use my own easing oil solution. I've used this method before & it has worked. I've never been very successful using locking nuts on a really stubborn one though, all I've ever done with that method is do them up too tight & ruin the thread. Crying or Very sad

Personally I would be very careful heating stuff in cast iron. I wouldn't heat anything until it glowed red, I've never found that much heat necessary. If it's a big casting the heat differential could cause it to crack elsewhere.

Do get it hot though, but just use a bit of caution. You can always add more heat, but you can't easily undo the damage caused by over heating.

I've had to drill out a couple of snapped studs recently & re-tap the holes. It's not the end of the world, but it is a last resort. Like Stu says, patience is your best weapon here.

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Re: Penetrating/release oil

Post by nutgone on Thu May 09 2013, 23:19

If you do have to drill it out, put the cover plate back on with the remaining bolts. Find a drill that exactly fits the hole which the stud went through & drill a little dimple in the end of the stud through the hole in the cover plate. This will get you properly centred on the stud. Then use the correct size tapping drill to drill the stud out & then re-tap the hole.

Last time I did one like this I actually found the original thread, so did no damage whatsoever. I couldn't believe it!

But, don't do it all the time there is plenty of stud sticking out. it's really a last resort for when it snaps off either lush or below the surface (the one I did was below the surface, which is probably why the tap found the original thread).

This reminds me, I've got exactly the same problem on my nephews' Lister D. Which I've still got to sort out!

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Re: Penetrating/release oil

Post by stationary stu on Fri May 10 2013, 11:27

Can I add that when your removing studs that's ceased make sure your tools are up to the job. If you try to remove it with a pair of mole grips or stillsons with worn down teeth your only going to make things worse, a lot worse. So check the teeth and if your in doubt replace them before trying to remove the stud, there not that expensive but could save you a lot of extra work.

Stu.

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Re: Penetrating/release oil

Post by nutgone on Fri May 10 2013, 12:55

stationary stu wrote:Can I add that when your removing studs that's ceased make sure your tools are up to the job. If you try to remove it with a pair of mole grips or stillsons with worn down teeth your only going to make things worse, a lot worse. So check the teeth and if your in doubt replace them before trying to remove the stud, there not that expensive but could save you a lot of extra work.

Stu.

iagree iagree iagree

This is where cheap tools will let you down. "Buy cheap, buy twice" is what they say. Cheap mole grips are usually useless. I've got a pair of middle-of-the-road ones, but even with those you can tell they are not the best.

Sometimes it's worth picking up good quality 2nd hand tools at the autojumble stalls, but obviously they need to be checked for condition & quality.

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Re: Penetrating/release oil

Post by biomed32uk on Fri May 10 2013, 16:00

Seconded, don't buy cheap tools, just a huge no. They will not do a decent job nor last, false economy.

I've some of my Dads tools that date from WW2, probably saw service in India working on planes and they are still working for me.

Also look after them, the right tool for the right job. Every job I have had my tools have been my living, any one found abusing them......

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Re: Penetrating/release oil

Post by nutgone on Fri May 10 2013, 16:07

Some of the cheaper workshop tools & ancillaries can be OK for occasional hobby type use, like cheap drills & machine tools, but most hand tools really need to be quality.

I bought a cheap pair of Nielson piston ring pliers (£5.35 including p&p) & they were completely useless. They won't even hold a ring, so I carry on with the small slivers of shim metal, as that is a time honoured way of removing rings safely (I've even heard of ring pliers breaking rings, so I won't be buying another pair, cheap or otherwise).

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Re: Penetrating/release oil

Post by davelister on Fri May 10 2013, 19:01

atf is great stuff,ive got my dh timing chain soaking in some as we speak.the chains a bit stiff but still useable,a soak in a pot of atf for a week will free it up nicely.

i also freed a siezed piston with atf/paraffin mix,50/50 mix half way up the boar,slither of wood as a wick,stand back and light the mixture,leave burning for an hour or so,blow out the fire,tap out the piston,done. as the cylinder heats up and expands the atf mix seeps down the side of the piston and as the fires on top of the piston using a wick,the piston doesnt expand as quick as the cylinder does. very stuck pistons may need a second firing but wait until the cylinder is cold.

little off topic but its another use for atf.


cheers mat

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AT again

Post by nutgone on Fri May 10 2013, 22:23

Mix 50/50 with acetone for a really good penetrating spray, better than WD40 or any of the others. But it needs to be kept air tight when not in use as the acetone will evaporate off quickly.

I tried this with methylated spirits, as I know it is very similar to acetone, but the water content is much higher, so it didn't work as well, but it's still pretty good stuff, I keep it in a spray bottle which I found a good fitting lid for when not in use.

Methylated spirit is good on stuck piston rings as it's very thin. Mix a little ATF with it in a jar, shake it up & drop the piston in, upside-down. Put the lid on & leave to soak, the piston rings should be easier to come off. Not a miracle cure by any means, but has worked for me in the past.

With your easing oil solution though, you really don't need that much ATF in it to make a difference. Just a good squirt will give really good results.

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Re: Penetrating/release oil

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