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Villiers "The V Engine"

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Villiers "The V Engine"

Post by nutgone on Tue Oct 15 2013, 18:30

Bought this without really thinking the other day & picked it up today with a nice drive through the Sussex countryside (the car needed a good run out, that's my excuse)....









Within a short while of getting home I had got the spanners out & started to dismantle....





TBH I'm not really sure why I bought it, but I thought it would be a little different to the usual Villiers sidevalve engines & a little larger & perhaps a little older.

I think this one is an ex-military engine as it has the screened HT lead & screened sparkplug still intact, but the plates are missing from the cowling, so I have no idea of the engine number.

I can say it seems to be in pretty good nick. I haven't taken any more pics yet, but the crank shaft is now out. The bearings are all fine, the big end is good, the piston looks good, although there are some wear marks on the bore, but not too much of a lip at the top.

Also, the very good news, the magneto coil is reading just over 4kOhms, which means it is still intact & should work.

Does anyone have any idea on age for this engine? I can tell you it has the oil trough in the sump (a spot welded, bolt-on, tin affair), which was a JAP patent & (I think) usually found on the later Villiers engines, but how late? Could it be war-time?

It looks to me like someone was in the process of rebuilding this engine & was at the reassembly stage. The sump is dry & clean, the big end has copper-slip on it & the horrible red-hermitite is reasonably fresh on the crank case plate. Also the head is clean & has a new gasket.

I was going to use this as an experimental engine; We are hoping to move in the next year & get more workshop space, where I would like to experiment with alternative energy sources (wood-gas, coal gas, water gas, maybe a Hydroxy-gas generator, that kind of thing), but I can do that with any old engine & will probably go for something else like an old Honda when that time comes. I think I will clean this one up, give it the usual careful rebuild, prime, paint, get running nice & either sell it or do something with it myself as part of my own collection. By the looks of things it shouldn't take much to get going.

Only bad points so far: silencer is rusted through & it has been dropped on the carb, which has bent the choke, dented the float bowl & bent the governor arm. Nothing too serious.

Hopefully Kev can fill me in with the history of these engines. I have no idea what the orange piece of cowling is doing in there, that's off a Villiers 2-stroke, probably like the ones used on the Allen Scythe or the Telles chainsaws. There's a few other bits & bobs too, but mostly parts for this engine, which appears to be reasonably complete.

Nothing very interesting though folks, sorry. But my next proper one (my next "keeper") will be on the way in the next week or so. Now that is something interesting.

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Re: Villiers "The V Engine"

Post by Lewis MacRae on Tue Oct 15 2013, 19:08

that's a nice looking Villiers you have there, are you going to restore this before you restore the other one, if you get the other one?

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Re: Villiers "The V Engine"

Post by kevjhnsn on Tue Oct 15 2013, 19:13

pmed you matt
and yes ww2 eara issued engines
so the enamy couldnt relate there equipment to the wolverhapton,birmingham england company ,that was quite a inpressive sized company of its day
there shoulld be a date stamped either on top around the sparkplug hole area ,were the wd40 is on it or on the topside of curved top ,also maybe on the flat rear of engine air deflector ajh
194#
measure the bore for me mate as i think its either a mk20 with 63mm bore or a mk25 with 70mm bore
kev

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Re: Villiers "The V Engine"

Post by nutgone on Tue Oct 15 2013, 21:37

Ah ha! I found a brass plate languishing in the bottom of a box of bits. The cowling has holes for 2 such plates but I can only find one, I suspect the other was a MOD identification plate or something, the one I've found is definitely the engine plate....



The number is 502-4733 & it's a Mk.25

I'm a bit busy tomorrow & Thursday with doctors & hospitals, but will have a good look for those numbers you mentioned on Friday (after my morning dentist appointment, I really am falling apart Crying or Very sad ). Might get a chance to have a scratch around tomorrow evening, although I've got the buyer coming to pick the Lister up then (strange time to pick up an engine, but there you go).

I've been dismantling the magneto just now & everything appears to be in good order. I've tested the condenser & it's as good as a new one, all the little LT wires will need replacing though, the insulation has perished. But that's a job I quite like & I have plenty of the small, solder-on, ring terminals.

Will get a few more pics before I go too much further.

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Re: Villiers "The V Engine"

Post by kevjhnsn on Wed Oct 16 2013, 01:42

utty matt
VILLIERS MK25
256.5cc
bore 70mm
stroke 66.7mm
2hp to 2.2hp @ 1500 rpm               the larger figures in this
2.5hp  to 2.9 @ 2000 rpm                and this one or the HS engines#
3hp  @ 2500 rpm               standard spec   engines
3.4hp @ 3000 rpm              # high speed engine spec#
1 gallon fuel tank
2 pint sump capacity
timing is advanced 3/16" btdc
coil part number is M1631 if you need one
i also have a mate with new/ols stock  villiers screened ht leads and plugs to suit
i have about 3 good mk 20s and 25s for spares if you or anyone needs any as dont seam to have the interest at this time to build them back up again
points gap 0.12-1.16"
valve clearance inlet and exhurst between 006" to 010" cold
any thing else you need to know i will have to get the manual out as this is all memory has installed
heres the date stamp i was telling you about
cant remember were tis one was from pic

dammed close to were i said earlyer Very Happy 

and the missing plate is this one but just becouse the holes are there dont mean the were all used as out of the 7-8 ive had or have only one had both plate on and that had another set of the holes on the flat side of cowling were fuel tank will cover over ish

kev


Last edited by kevjhnsn on Fri Oct 18 2013, 16:06; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Villiers "The V Engine"

Post by nutgone on Wed Oct 16 2013, 10:46

Cheers Kev, that's great.

I've just been out there & found that date stamp, on the underside of the cowling up the top where it covers the head (not far from the sparkplug hole, like you said). It appears to say AUH (although it could be AJH) then 1945. So a 1945 engine.

She's not in bad shape considering she's nearly 70 years old.

I also took the valves out last night. There's a lot of sand in there with the springs & valve stems, not sure what it's doing there, maybe left over from blasting? Maybe this engine was stored somewhere that flooded? Who knows? I'm glad it's coming completely to bits though, don't want any of that left in there when she's running.

Been thinking about the JAP Patent oil trough system ound on this engine. Maybe as it was war time Villiers were allowed to use it? Aren't patents relaxed during war time??? I thought it was the later Villiers engines that had the trough (with the small "metered" oil hole in the side) in the sump for the dipper & earlier ones just had the dipper going straight into the sump? Might have a little look into that some time. Although it's not top on my list of priorities right now.

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Re: Villiers "The V Engine"

Post by kevjhnsn on Wed Oct 16 2013, 13:57

the dipper system has always been in the villiers 4 stroke engines  from the start ,even the 1927 produced wx11 has curved base to guide oil to crank webs for misting the settled oil even the mk 7/1s 10 and 12s were made with it from the begining to end, the villiers design is better as mounted to internal castings rather than the jap of bolt holes through the bottom of sump Shocked lets make 2 more places for the buggers to leak from Very Happy 
but jap may have fitted it first and villiers just inproved the idea " as mr jap john alfrid prestwich ,mr villiers and mr marston, were always working on ideas together from the number of shared named engines  villiers d270-d415 and jap d270-d415 the mk40 is a bitsa engine from new and thats just the ones i can remember
but as records show in black and white After 1945 production was taken over by the Villiers Engineering Co and by the 1960s villiers owned the outright
thats
kev

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Re: Villiers "The V Engine"

Post by nutgone on Wed Oct 16 2013, 14:41

Lewis MacRae wrote:that's a nice looking Villiers you have there, are you going to restore this before you restore the other one, if you get the other one?
Hi Lewis, sorry I didn't see this post until jut now. I kind of bought this one by accident, I think it will be one of those projects to keep me busy in-between other jobs. Also I haven't done much in the workshop since late June, so this will ease me back in gently.

The "other" project (if I get it) will hopefully be one that I just get going & run in original or "as found" condition & maybe restore it later. But knowing me I will probably have it in bits before it's had time to gather dust. Apparently it hasn't been run for a few years but was running well before. Must admit I don't like buying engines without having the chance to look at them before money changes hands, but I'm prepared to take a chance with this one.

Which reminds me, I must make a phone call & chase up this "other" project. See if it's still there & get the owner to start strapping it onto a pallet. The Lister should be going tonight (I've just been out there, fired it up & got all the bits together). If all goes to plan I could have the new project this weekend, but more likely in a week or so.

* * *

Now, back to this one. I've taken the crankshaft out & the bearing on the timing side has come out with it, so I can't see any timing marks when I reassemble it. I had a little go at pulling the bearing off the shaft last night but it's surprisingly tight on there. Shall i just do the timing by eye or take the risk of buggering up a perfectly good bearing by pulling it off the shaft (I haven't got a proper bearing puller, just a multitude of normal pullers, which pull only on the outer race, which is NOT the correct way to remove a bearing from a shaft.

Valve timing isn't rocket science, so I will probably leave the bearing where it is.

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Re: Villiers "The V Engine"

Post by kevjhnsn on Wed Oct 16 2013, 15:02

nutgone wrote:
Lewis MacRae wrote:that's a nice looking Villiers you have there, are you going to restore this before you restore the other one, if you get the other one?
Hi Lewis, sorry I didn't see this post until jut now. I kind of bought this one by accident, I think it will be one of those projects to keep me busy in-between other jobs. Also I haven't done much in the workshop since late June, so this will ease me back in gently.

The "other" project (if I get it) will hopefully be one that I just get going & run in original or "as found" condition & maybe restore it later. But knowing me I will probably have it in bits before it's had time to gather dust. Apparently it hasn't been run for a few years but was running well before. Must admit I don't like buying engines without having the chance to look at them before money changes hands, but I'm prepared to take a chance with this one.

Which reminds me, I must make a phone call & chase up this "other" project. See if it's still there & get the owner to start strapping it onto a pallet. The Lister should be going tonight (I've just been out there, fired it up & got all the bits together). If all goes to plan I could have the new project this weekend, but more likely in a week or so.

*     *     *

Now, back to this one. I've taken the crankshaft out & the bearing on the timing side has come out with it, so I can't see any timing marks when I reassemble it. I had a little go at pulling the bearing off the shaft last night but it's surprisingly tight on there. Shall i just do the timing by eye or take the risk of buggering up a perfectly good bearing by pulling it off the shaft (I haven't got a proper bearing puller, just a multitude of normal pullers, which pull only on the outer race, which is NOT the correct way to remove a bearing from a shaft.

Valve timing isn't rocket science, so I will probably leave the bearing where it is.
matt there is a dot/center punch timing mark on the crank and cam gears ,can be seen through the flywheel mag opening ,even with the bearings on crankshaft.
bearings usually on need a little heat on them and they release from the crank its usually only about 10-20 oC differnt needed and they come of easly with leather hammer ,hammer and wooden block or pullers and no damage to bearing is caused,

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Re: Villiers "The V Engine"

Post by Guest on Thu Oct 17 2013, 07:26

Funny how many engines you get by "Accident" you must have very poor eyesite or very slippery fingers.

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Re: Villiers "The V Engine"

Post by nutgone on Thu Oct 17 2013, 08:44

Bigkid wrote:Funny how many engines you get by "Accident" you must have very poor eyesite or very slippery fingers.
Hey! It's my number one fan! cheers 

How are you Bigkid? See we still haven't grown up yet.

You only seem to post when I'm here, makes me feel right at home. I've got a little she-cat like that, she follows me everywhere. She makes a lot of useless noises as well. Her name's Georgina, but I guess we'll never know what yours is, people like you tend to change their username wherever they go. I wonder why that is??? scratch scratch scratch 

* * *

Anyway, back on topic, This one's now completely apart, camshaft out, bearing off the crankshaft. Might spend the weekend cleaning it up, if I feel up to it.

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Re: Villiers "The V Engine"

Post by nutgone on Mon Oct 28 2013, 20:06

Been pressing slowly on with this one. The engine is all cleaned up & put back together now. The mag has also been completely dismantled, cleaned up & put back together. I checked it for a spark & it's a good-un.

I have been stripping the old paint off with the angle grinder/wire brush attachment & the cowling has come up really well. Sadly I neglected to take any pics of the cowling before coating it with red-oxide.

Strangely though, or perhaps not so strangely for a war time engine, there is a fair array of different materials on this one. The main crank case is cast iron, as is the barrel. The head is aluminium alloy, as is the cooling fin section of the flywheel. But the flywheel itself is bronze (standard for older Villiers I suppose), but also cast in bronze is the petrol tank mounting bracket! The right-angled pipe connecting the carb to the block is also bronze & the cone-shaped protection cover for the magneto, which goes around the starter pulley on the flywheel, is pressed copper sheet. The starter pulley is ally again.

I have decided to paint the ally bits in silver, polish up the bronze bits & paint the rest in "Service Brown" (a military colour). I couldn't find a small tin of Khaki paint on eBay & the olive drab (OK so that's American, but would've done) was over a fiver more than the brown. As Khaki is a brown shade anyway I thought Service Brown should do.

Bloody silly really, I have the Homelite, a U.S. Army wartime generating set, which will need painting at some point, so I should've paid the extra & gone for olive drab Rolling Eyes . But as usual with me & eBay, I wasn't thinking.

Will post up some pics when I get them sorted on Photobucket.

I need a Villiers choke for this one. It's for a stub of 15/16" diameter (couldn't make it a round inch could they?)

Having seen what Kev's engines went for I think I will invest in a NOS shielded plug & lead for this one. Should look good when done, although not strictly proper, as I'm sure the army didn't polish up the copper & bronze bits. Who knows, I might even keep it, especially if it fits in the boot of the beemer.

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Re: Villiers "The V Engine"

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