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Lister H2 Pump Restoration

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Lister H2 Pump Restoration

Post by A Lister on Fri Nov 01 2013, 19:09

A few weeks ago someone teased me about not making many posts since I joined this forum Embarassed  so I thought I’d better do something about it and post a restoration thread!  About 18 months ago I bought a Lister H2 pump, which has been undergoing a rather relaxed restoration ever since. Unfortunately, I forgot to take any photos of the pump before I started working on it.   Condition-wise it was a complete, but lightly seized-up, older restoration that had not been run for years.  It had been painted a kind of ‘Suffolk lawnmower green’, with ‘Ruston maroon’ connecting rods and pipework.

The paint had been put on very thickly and had a number of drips and runs in it; so getting it back to bare metal to repaint it took a bit of effort!  This photo of the stripped down pump body gives some idea of the original colour scheme and the general condition of the paintwork on the pump:




Stripping the paint off revealed one or two surprises; someone had ground off the ‘Lister’ name from the air vessel.  They’d done a very neat job of it too, as you couldn’t see a trace of it after the first coat of red oxide primer had been applied.




This photo shows the connecting rods, stainless steel ram (it’s a former spray pump), the silver-painted(!) cross-head and the glands before everything was stripped of paint and/or cleaned up. The gear covers and badly tarnished brass valve covers can be seen towards the top right of the photo.  The newly repainted air vessel can also be seen top left:
 



The old gland packing had gone hard and needed replacing; some nice new PTFE impregnated packing has now been bought and fitted. Big stuff too, for a small-ish pump, at ½ inch square!




As mentioned above, this is a former spray pump which uses caged ball valves rather than the rubber disc type valves fitted to the water pump version of the Lister H2.  You can see from the photo below there is a four-legged, arched cage that retains a brass ball... or at least there should be!
 



On removing the top, right hand valve cover (which fought me every millimetre of the way!)  I found the valve cage was broken.  It appears that someone many years ago had tried to unscrew the caged valve assembly from the pump body by turning the cage.  This had twisted and bent the cage, before shearing it off, leaving just one badly bent leg still attached to the brass valve seat, with the remainder of the now three-legged cage rattling around loose in the valve chamber.

An attempt to gently bend the remaining leg of the cage back into position failed, resulting in it snapping off completely.  You can see in the photo below the one remaining bright spot (just below the two o’clock position) where the remaining leg was joined.  This indicates that the rest of the cage must have broken off quite some time ago, judging by the coating of rust residue covering the brass:
 



The only realistic option left was to straighten up the broken and twisted valve cage as much as I dared without it breaking, and to clean up the broken area so it could be braised back together:  



The remaining valves were tested with water and were found to work OK, and the pump body was washed out well and given a few weeks to completely dry out before continuing with the restoration.   The next challenge was to re-attach the repaired cage securely onto the valve body.  Removing the rest of the brass valve body was not going to be an option, as it was well and truly corroded into place.  Getting the valve body hot enough to braise the cage back onto wasn’t going to work either as the braised repair on the valve cage would be likely to melt first, resulting in it dropping to bits before it was re-attached to the valve body!
 
I haven’t got the facilities to machine up a new valve, so drilling the old one out and trying to replace it wasn’t going to be a practical or affordable option for me.  I did consider seeing if someone could TIG-weld the cage back in place, but there is very little room to work in the valve chamber and one mistake and I could have ended up with the brass ball welded to the valve body, or weld ruining the valve seat.  So the potential for something going wrong put me off that idea!

After some thought, I decided to use epoxy resin to re-attach the valve cage.  A small block of rubber could then be cut to size to sit on top of the valve cage.  When the valve cover is screwed into place this will press rubber block down gently on the cage giving additional support to the repair.  Not the prettiest of repairs, but it should work well enough… and at least it’s easily repeatable or reversible if it doesn’t!
 



While the valve repair was given time to harden off my attention turned to the pressure relief valve, which needed stripping down, the paint and rust cleaning off and repainting.
 


This is how the pump body looked after two coats of primer followed by two coats of engine enamel (brush painted), new gaskets were also cut from some rubberised cork sheet.
 



The gears were found to be in very good condition, but despite removing the keys from the pinion gears they did not want to budge from the gear-shaft.  Rather than risk chipping a gear tooth by using a puller in an attempt to remove them, I decided to leave well alone and refitted the keys. This made preparing and repainting the gear assembly (in effect, the whole back end of the pump) a bit tricky!   Still, I got there in the end and I’m quite pleased with the result.  The connecting rods, gear covers and the oil chamber cover were also taken back to bare metal and repainted.




New gland packing was fitted, and the newly repainted gear section was then re-installed (after allowing two weeks for the paint to harden). The gear guards were then re-fitted and any minor paint chips from reassembly were touched in.  The tarnished brass-work was then cleaned (my least favourite job!) and refitted.




There’s still a bit of work left to do yet: the pressure relief valve is still in bits waiting for the paint to harden; and new delivery and inlet pipework still has to be thought out and designed, but at least most of the paintwork has been done before the cold weather sets in!  I've really enjoyed doing this restoration so far, and this is pretty much where I’m up to at the moment, will keep you updated on progress, thanks for reading:



Last edited by A Lister on Sat Nov 02 2013, 01:23; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Lister H2 Pump Restoration

Post by Lewis MacRae on Fri Nov 01 2013, 19:26

that looks really good, the paint work is stunning! what type of pulley does it have, flat belt or vee belt?

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Re: Lister H2 Pump Restoration

Post by matt86 on Fri Nov 01 2013, 21:17

About time Jules ! you now know i will be on your back to keep posting Laughing Laughing 

cracking job like normal mate , i really do like your keep eye to your paintwork ... turned the fairbanks block over today and must say it does have a nice shine Cool Craftmaster is well worth the money in my view .

Never seem a h2 with a pressure relief valve , where does it attach to ?

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Re: Lister H2 Pump Restoration

Post by Villiers on Fri Nov 01 2013, 22:43

The pressure relief goes on the delivery side of the pump so when the sprayer hoses get turned off it opens and recirculate back to the mixing tank.

If it is a proper high pressure H2 then it would have been chain driven as you need 100% power transmission, you will never get that with a flat or vee belt.

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Re: Lister H2 Pump Restoration

Post by Lewis MacRae on Fri Nov 01 2013, 22:50

Villiers wrote:The pressure relief goes on the delivery side of the pump so when the sprayer hoses get turned off it opens and recirculate back to the mixing tank.

If it is a proper high pressure H2 then it would have been chain driven as you need 100% power transmission, you will never get that with a flat or vee belt.
could it have been direct coupled to a lister d on a base?

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Re: Lister H2 Pump Restoration

Post by matt86 on Fri Nov 01 2013, 22:53

i expect it could of been no reason why that wouldnt work .

are you going to run from a chain jules ?

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Re: Lister H2 Pump Restoration

Post by Villiers on Fri Nov 01 2013, 23:00

No, the high pressure sets are all chain driven, if it was a direct couple unit then it would make the whole rig to big to go down between the trees in an orchard.

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Re: Lister H2 Pump Restoration

Post by matt86 on Fri Nov 01 2013, 23:20

Villiers wrote:No, the high pressure sets are all chain driven, if it was a direct couple unit then it would make the whole rig to big to go down between the trees in an orchard.
good point so the base mounted ones in a "L" shape was permanently fixed to a concrete base or the like ...

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Re: Lister H2 Pump Restoration

Post by kevjhnsn on Fri Nov 01 2013, 23:50

jules
cracking paint job jules as always mate
havent seen you do half a job restoration yet mate Wink Very Happy Very Happy 
nice to see the pump and cages weve spoke about over the season ,and what a fiddly job that looked to do
you know i will have to pop and visit you one day seeing as your only 2 1/2miles from my door Embarassed 
keep up the posting mate and the quailty pics you do ,almost like a twitchers spec Laughing Laughing 
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Re: Lister H2 Pump Restoration

Post by A Lister on Sat Nov 02 2013, 00:55

Thanks for the nice comments chaps.   Rob is right, the pressure relief valve goes on the outlet and is there to stop damage to the pump or the engine stalling when the spray hose was turned off.  Going from the photos I've seen, these pumps were mounted with the engine on a long trolley and there would usually have been a galvanised metal tank at one end of the trolley containing the chemical to be sprayed. When the spray lance at the end of the hose was turned off, the pressure would force that large spring in the photo up and allow the liquid to flow out of the pressure valve outlet, along a pipe and back into the tank.     

It seems the handle at the top of the pressure valve could be unlatched and lifted, this would open the valve and presumably allow the liquid to circulate at much reduced pressure.  I think they'd probably have done this before trying to start the engine, or to clean the pump after spraying. Question  The H series spray pumps were usually fitted with a stainless steel ram of smaller diameter than the water pump versions. This was more resistant to corrosion than the standard steel version, the smaller diameter of the ram would also reduce resistance when creating the higher pressure needed for spraying.   

The pump would originally have been chain driven, but it was fitted with a shimmed up Lister D type flat belt pulley when I bought it.  As chain drives are more dangerous than flat belts (needing guards due to their ability to cut fingers off and take chunks out of arms and legs!) I'll keep it as belt drive, but I'll probably fit a larger diameter pulley to it when I get chance to reduce the pump speed (the spray pump runs at a lower RPM than the water pump version).

If I have got any of the above wrong then please tell me, as I'm still learning about these pumps and how they were used.  study scratch

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Re: Lister H2 Pump Restoration

Post by A Lister on Sat Nov 02 2013, 01:21

Cheers Kev, it's not the prettiest repair I've ever done but hopefully it'll work OK and get the old girl running again.  I'd love to see one of those caged ball valves out of a pump and cleaned up, it's been puzzling me how they got the ball in there when they were making them!   They must have made them in 2 parts then put them together somehow; I can't find any drawings or info about them though, the reprint instruction booklet on Lister H pumps I bought mentions them but only shows the flat disc valves in the drawings.  scratch   

I wouldn't bother calling round for a brew at the moment kev, the trick or treaters had the last of the biscuits last night! Rolling Eyes  I'll let you know when I've re-stocked!   Smile

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Re: Lister H2 Pump Restoration

Post by kevjhnsn on Sat Nov 02 2013, 01:57

jules
fair enough then
laters
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Re: Lister H2 Pump Restoration

Post by Villiers on Sat Nov 02 2013, 08:03

This is how it would have been originally, apart from the copper pipework and bollox water tank...

http://www.stationaryengine.org/listerpumpset_restoration_done.htm

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Re: Lister H2 Pump Restoration

Post by A Lister on Sat Nov 02 2013, 11:14

That's the sort of thing Rob, it has a different type of pressure valve though.  My pump also came with the adjustable metal mounting plates like the ones in those photos, so should look OK when I make a trolley for it.   I do like the look of those convoluted hoses, the brass unions on them look nice too; bet those weren't cheap!  Looks a very nice restoration and it's good to see an original set that's not been broken up.

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Re: Lister H2 Pump Restoration

Post by Lewis MacRae on Sat Nov 02 2013, 11:58

Arre you running it of a D?

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Re: Lister H2 Pump Restoration

Post by Villiers on Sat Nov 02 2013, 19:14

[quote="A Lister"]That's the sort of thing Rob, it has a different type of pressure valve though.  My pump also came with the adjustable metal mounting plates like the ones in those photos, so should look OK when I make a trolley for it.   I do like the look of those convoluted hoses, the brass unions on them look nice too; bet those weren't cheap!  Looks a very nice restoration and it's good to see an original set that's not been broken up.[/quote]
The one I had came with the same PRV as your one, I have one of the all brass PRV in the shed, just need to find a pump to fit it on!

I found some convoluted hose at our local garden centre, is used for fish ponds so that might be worth a look?

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Re: Lister H2 Pump Restoration

Post by billypurves on Sun Nov 03 2013, 19:26

Nice job on the pump.

A little tip for you here for the next time cleaning old brass and copper........soak the items in HP sauce for a couple of days. Makes the muck come off a lot easier.

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Re: Lister H2 Pump Restoration

Post by matt86 on Sun Nov 03 2013, 19:41

billypurves wrote:Nice job on the pump.

 A little tip for you here for the next time cleaning old brass and copper........soak the items in HP sauce for a couple of days. Makes the muck come off a lot easier.
wonder why that is ? vinegar ?

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Re: Lister H2 Pump Restoration

Post by A Lister on Sun Nov 03 2013, 19:53

Thanks for the comment and the brass cleaning tip Billy, I’ll give that a try next time I'm faced with cleaning tarnished brass. Smile 

In reply to Lewis; yes it will be driven off my 1940 Lister D, which has a 4" diameter pulley so is nice and low geared.  If I can find a larger diameter pulley to fit to the pump I’ll be able to drive it with my Lister A too.  That will give me a nice choice of engines and driven machinery to choose from.  If the weather forecast is for rain I can take the pump, if it’s for sunshine I can take the corn mill.  Very Happy 

I managed to get a bit more done today, I finished putting the PRV back together again, then had to stop because it went dark (no power in the shed!)!  I still have the split pin handle hinges to touch in with green paint and to give the nuts and bolt heads their second coat, then it’s finished.  I think it looks a bit better than it did before anyway.  Next job is the trolley mounting plates, then the pipework. bounce 


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Re: Lister H2 Pump Restoration

Post by matt86 on Sun Nov 03 2013, 19:58

A Lister wrote:Thanks for the comment and the brass cleaning tip Billy, I’ll give that a try next time I'm faced with cleaning tarnished brass. Smile 

In reply to Lewis; yes it will be driven off my 1940 Lister D, which has a 4" diameter pulley so is nice and low geared.  If I can find a larger diameter pulley to fit to the pump I’ll be able to drive it with my Lister A too.  That will give me a nice choice of engines and driven machinery to choose from.  If the weather forecast is for rain I can take the pump, if it’s for sunshine I can take the corn mill.  Very Happy 

I managed to get a bit more done today, I finished putting the PRV back together again, then had to stop because it went dark (no power in the shed!)!  I still have the split pin handle hinges to touch in with green paint and to give the nuts and bolt heads their second coat, then it’s finished.  I think it looks a bit better than it did before anyway.  Next job is the trolley mounting plates, then the pipework. bounce 

looking nice jules now thats a fair bit of paint on there .

No power in shed eh ??? how the heck do you work ? extention lead ?

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Re: Lister H2 Pump Restoration

Post by Foden on Sun Nov 03 2013, 20:08

That looks good Jules! Like me you have no elektrikery either, it does make life harder at times but we get by with eating lots of carrots and wrapping up well.Wink  The paint should be dry by next years Astle Park rally haha.Smile 

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Re: Lister H2 Pump Restoration

Post by A Lister on Sun Nov 03 2013, 20:12

matt86 wrote:
looking nice jules now thats a fair bit of paint on there .

No power in shed eh ??? how the heck do you work ? extention lead ?

matt
Two coats of red oxide and between two and three coats of engine enamel, thin it just looks thicker in the photo.  I did cheat and sprayed the handle, as a 'rattle-can' was cheaper than a tin of red paint!  Embarassed lol! 

Yeah, short extension lead for sanding and grinding outside.  I can only work in the shed during daylight hours or else use a torch for emergency stuff!  Still, I get there in the end.


Last edited by A Lister on Sun Nov 03 2013, 20:20; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Lister H2 Pump Restoration

Post by A Lister on Sun Nov 03 2013, 20:18

Foden wrote:That looks good Jules!  Like me you have no elektrikery either, it does make life harder at times but we get by with eating lots of carrots and wrapping up well.Wink  The paint should be dry by next years Astle Park rally haha.Smile 

Pete.
I know, it's a hard life up north isn't it.  lol!  At least with small bits like that I can bring them inside to let them harden off.

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Re: Lister H2 Pump Restoration

Post by Lewis MacRae on Sun Nov 03 2013, 20:27

A Lister wrote:
matt86 wrote:
looking nice jules now thats a fair bit of paint on there .

No power in shed eh ??? how the heck do you work ? extention lead ?

matt
Two coats of red oxide and between two and three coats of engine enamel, thin it just looks thicker in the photo.  I did cheat and sprayed the handle, as a 'rattle-can' was cheaper than a tin of red paint!  Embarassed lol! 

Yeah, short extension lead for sanding and grinding outside.  I can only work in the shed during daylight hours or else use a torch for emergency stuff!  Still, I get there in the end.
regarding the no power to the shed,

How can you work light that I know I couldent!

Regarding the Pump,

That looks great and will gleam on the rally field next season!

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Re: Lister H2 Pump Restoration

Post by Foden on Sun Nov 03 2013, 20:45

A Lister wrote:
Foden wrote:That looks good Jules!  Like me you have no elektrikery either, it does make life harder at times but we get by with eating lots of carrots and wrapping up well.Wink  The paint should be dry by next years Astle Park rally haha.Smile 

Pete.
I know, it's a hard life up north isn't it.  lol!  At least with small bits like that I can bring them inside to let them harden off.  
That's what I do Jules, my PB crankcase will be making an appearance in the kitchen soon! Most of the small parts were painted last winter and are hardening off in the loft. I do run a lead across to the shed for using the bench grinder etc but there is no lighting in it, and my garage is the other side of the road so again it means running a lead across. We manage though, what you haven't had you don't miss.Smile 

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