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Villiers Magneto.

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Villiers Magneto.

Post by chiefy on Wed Aug 05 2015, 14:33

Hi I am currently working on 2 MK25s I am unable to find a spark on either engine I have heard that the coils can be suspect on these old engines, I have looked at new coils but they are very expensive(more than i paid for both engines) are there alternatives that i can look at to get both running again,they are both complete engines, 1 is standard & the other is high speed with zenith carb.All help ,ideas or advice welcome.Chiefy.

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Re: Villiers Magneto.

Post by Darryl Ovens on Thu Aug 06 2015, 02:32

I've seen electronic ignition "black boxes" that do the role of both points and coil,  usually triggered by a reed switch or similar, They usually need a 12V supply and the trigger, but have the HT coming direct out of the box.  Generally from china and here in NZ sold on trademe, (local equivalent of ebay or similar I guess).
You may get lucky and find some 2nd hand Villiers coils too.  Have you checked continuity/resistance of the primary and secondary coils?  As the capacitors and points can often be the problem and are much cheaper/ easier to sort.

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Re: Villiers Magneto.

Post by Woodsman on Thu Aug 06 2015, 08:21

Hi Chiefy,

You are dead right those M1361 coils are pricey.  We got our MK20 going using Nutgone's excellent how to:

http://www.stationaryengineforum.net/t6890-coil-ignition-without-a-battery

Best price I have found for the genuine article is here:

http://villiersservices.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=8_18_52&products_id=28

You can get 'chinese copies' cheaper but you will need to carefully solder a copper shim onto the HT terminal.

http://www.feked.com/electrical/ignition-system/ignition-coil/page-2/

These two suppliers also sell the condenser should you need one.

As Darryl suggests - test resistance in both LT ( about 1 ohm) and HT (around %k ohm) before you abandon the coil. If testing in situ slide a piece of card between the points to isolate coil from earth.


Last edited by Woodsman on Mon Aug 10 2015, 16:06; edited 3 times in total

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Re: Villiers Magneto.

Post by chiefy on Thu Aug 06 2015, 08:44

Hi Woodsman, Thanks for your reply I do not Have the equipment to test the coils even if i knew how i know zero about electrics and feel really nervous about doing anything electrical I feel really out of depth. but I will look at the 3 internet sites you mention. Best regards Keith.

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Re: Villiers Magneto.

Post by chiefy on Thu Aug 06 2015, 08:53

Hi Darryl , I was thinking last night that I may need to go to coil ignition, I know zero about electrics and I do not have the equipment to test anything, I could maybe convert to( blackbox) if I am capable setting it up. Best Regards Keith.

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Re: Villiers Magneto.

Post by Woodsman on Thu Aug 06 2015, 15:47

Hi Keith,
One trick you could try. Place plug lead on HT button and position the other end close to earth (on body of engine) - about plug gap distance.  Then get a decent battery (I use one from cordless drill) and connect a wire from one terminal of battery to earth. Connect a second wire to other terminal and dab it on the LT lead coming from coil. If you are lucky you should see a spark in HT gap. The coil may not last forever but it might keep you going for a while.

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Re: Villiers Magneto.

Post by Darryl Ovens on Thu Aug 06 2015, 20:55

Was wondering about trying something like that but, was not sure how similar magneto coils are to battery coils.  What range of voltage would you suggest?  (Given battery drills can vary anywhere from 3 up to 24 V or higher.  
I wouldn't want to burn out the primary with excessive current.  
And would you do this in place ie with the magnets/pole iron around the coil or when removed "on the bench" ie with no iron around the poles?

Cheers
Darryl

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Re: Villiers Magneto.

Post by Woodsman on Fri Aug 07 2015, 07:47

Hi Darryl,
My drill is 12 volt - I probably wouldn't go any higher. The primary winding is pretty hefty so a quick dab won't do any harm.  In situ is fine.


Last edited by Woodsman on Mon Aug 10 2015, 15:28; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Villiers Magneto.

Post by chiefy on Fri Aug 07 2015, 08:10

Hi Woodsman or is it Paul I don't have a cordless drill but I can prbably get hold of one.As Darryl Ovens says is the voltage critical and is this test done in situ or would the coil need to be removed.Also I see that you bought 2 engines at Ackworth show I went onthe Saturday and saw them and was tempted but then thought I really ought to get these 2 engines I am working on sorted first, thanks for the tip Paul, Best Regards Keith.(PS I have just seen your latest post to Darryl regarding the voltage)

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Re: Villiers Magneto.

Post by chiefy on Mon Aug 10 2015, 10:17

Hi Woodsman, I told you that I did not have a multimeter well I was at my model engineering open day and there was a raffle and I only went and won a digital multimeter,now as a total idiot regarding electrics could you explain how I test LT&HT & what sort of reading should I be Getting,incidently I looked at Nutgones site re running a Villiers engine without a battery even I understood some of it,Best wishes Keith.

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Re: Villiers Magneto.

Post by rich07961 on Mon Aug 10 2015, 12:26

Hi Keith,

Try this you tube link, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFtTbaI5CZc&spfreload=10

Regards

Richard

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Re: Villiers Magneto.

Post by chiefy on Mon Aug 10 2015, 15:01

Hi,Thanks for that good video just one snag i don't have sound on my computer(as Smiler says in Summer Wine there's always a snag)I suppose i really ought to get Modern!!!My grandkid's say i am rubbish at computers,Thanks anyway Richard and best regards to you Keith.

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Re: Villiers Magneto.

Post by Woodsman on Mon Aug 10 2015, 15:56

Hi Keith,

I'll try to explain.

Remember to slip a piece of card between points to isolate coil from earth (the body of the engine)

Switch on meter.
Push black plug to black socket - usually marked COM or common
Push red plug to red socket marked V / Ω or volts/ohms
Twiddle to knob until it's pointing to the lowest ohms range
Connect the two free ends of the leads together - you should get a zero reading i.e. short circuit.
Disconnect free ends
Connect free end of black lead to body of engine - anywhere will do
Connect free end of red lead to the blob of solder where the wire to the points comes out of the coil. You should get a low reading 2 - 5 ohms. If you get zero it's short circuit if you don't get a reading it's open circuit - goosed

Switch to higher ohms - maybe 20KΩ  (20,000 ohms) depending on meter.
This time connect the red lead to the copper button that the plug lead connects to.
You should get a reading of maybe  5000 to 10,000 ohms
If you get zero it's short circuit if you don't get a reading it's open circuit - goosed

Hope that helps.

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Re: Villiers Magneto.

Post by chiefy on Mon Aug 10 2015, 16:29

Hi Paul Thanks for that I have now got the coil on the bench Is it ok to test this on the bench,Best Regards Keith.

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Re: Villiers Magneto.

Post by Woodsman on Tue Aug 11 2015, 08:22

Hi Keith,

By all means - just use one of the iron poles as earth.

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Re: Villiers Magneto.

Post by chiefy on Tue Aug 11 2015, 09:11

Hi Paul, Thanks for your reply I will test the coil on the bench,When i dismantled the magneto yesterday i found stamped on the armature plate 502/43 do you think this could be 1943 date its not cast on the cast on marks are ME1560&1561 which are part numbers according to my spare parts list.Best Regards Keith.

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Re: Villiers Magneto.

Post by chiefy on Tue Aug 11 2015, 11:10

Hi Paul, I have tested the coil on the bench i put one end of core in vice set meter to low reading put black to earth ie vice &red to points terminal on coil I got a brief 4 ohms then drop to zero,i then set to higher 20k ohms again black to earth then red to HT button& no reading,so it looks like it is US or has my dad would have said it is harry hacked if mother was listening if she was not there he said different it looks like i need to invest in a new coil would i also be better changing the condenser while i am at it or can these be tested.Best Wishes Keith.

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Re: Villiers Magneto.

Post by chiefy on Fri Aug 14 2015, 09:46

Hi Paul,I took the flywheel of a incomplete MK 20 I Have in the workshop,and tested the coil, on the primary winding i got a brief 5 ohms it then dropped back to zero i then tested the secondary winding and this held at 5/6 thousand ohms,I also cleaned the flywheel but could not find any numbers stamped on it only an arrow pointing towards the starter pulley so that's 2 flywheels on the bench with no numbers on. Best Regards Keith.

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Re: Villiers Magneto.

Post by Woodsman on Sat Aug 15 2015, 08:16

Not sure what's going on with the brief LT reading falling to zero?? Are you sure you are keeping contact? If the meter was charging the condenser I'd expect it to start low and go high. If HT side is open circuit it's bin fodder. I'd re-check the other one as it's usually the HT side that fails due to corrosion whilst the LT side remains okay. As regards dating - I wish you luck !

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Re: Villiers Magneto.

Post by chiefy on Tue Aug 18 2015, 09:01

Hi Paul,Thanks for your thoughts on the coil what if the condenser is duff how would this affect the reading on the LT side, or am I getting it totally wrong,Best Regards Keith.

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Re: Villiers Magneto.

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