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Lister A16 help required

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Lister A16 help required

Post by rich07961 on Sun Feb 14 2016, 08:59

Hi all,

Well the A runs and after a few hrs of tinkering with the linkage adjustment and timing got it somewhere near but not as I would like it to be, so I have a few questions to ask to see if anyone can put me in the right direction any help would be very appreciated.
1. As you may notice in video she sometimes wants to race away and to stop it doing that I have to weaken the mixture, in fact its running quite rich, has anyone any idea why this would be.
2. In video you may here it popping now and again as if missing a beat, will valve clearances solve this.
3. When adjusting valve clearances should they be done when at TDC and on the rock or when the valve is fully at its lowest point, as I adjusted mine at there lowest point.
3. When its running it seems very unstable and if I increase the revs it shakes quite badly, could this mean the flywheels are off balance or perhaps they are on the wrong side as I put them back on the same side as removed, but someone had done a restoration quite a while ago and no timing marks on flywheels to know which side they may have come off originally. At the moment glad it runs after my first big rebuild but feeling at a loss to what to try next, many thanks in advance Regards R      Video of it running below


https://youtu.be/7-snAKq21yg

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Re: Lister A16 help required

Post by Nixie on Mon Feb 15 2016, 18:51

I don't think you can get the flywheels on the wrong way as the position on the crankshaft is governed by the key-ways. looking at the pictures of Lister A and B flywheels they look to be the same both sides, ie with the key-way opposite the balance weight. The valve clearance should be set with the valve fully closed. I know you've checked the timing but without timing marks on the flywheels how did you set it?

Bob

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Re: Lister A16 help required

Post by kevjhnsn on Mon Feb 15 2016, 19:30

if the engine is very bouncy when running at medium to normal running speeds and the the fly wheels have been removed, you can loose smothness of running if they were reasembled crossed over lift to right sides of engine crank shaft. the timing lightning strike mark or TDC mark should be on the flywheel on the side of engine were the single stud is td center to hold the cylinder onto crank block , as the guvernor weights will fit onto either flywheels .
hope this helps
kev

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Re: Lister A16 help required

Post by rich07961 on Mon Feb 15 2016, 19:48

Hi Kev, that was what I was wondering, as when I bought it the flywheels had not been put on with gib keys they had been turned 180 degrees and then the stud bolt was turned into the keyway, there are no timing marks on either flywheel except where someone had filed a mark after putting them back on 180 degrees out, I think I am going to have to take flywheels off again just to be sure, just did not want to yet as for damaging paintwork, but hopefully it wont be to much as they should come out fairly easy, many thanks

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Re: Lister A16 help required

Post by kevjhnsn on Mon Feb 15 2016, 20:45

the rest of the message and videos are missing from my first message mate

see if i can find it know or will rewrite it and a videos again grrr lol

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Re: Lister A16 help required

Post by kevjhnsn on Mon Feb 15 2016, 20:47

seeing video the main issue is not the flywheels ballance its the trolley ,its to short and tall for stablity of running on these old girls, low and long and they will run like a swiss watch all day, and if to short or tall for compression and firing stroke the engine will lift then feed extra fuel into engine, causing poping and more kick and then the cycling repeats and repeats , as they dont work like a normal jet carb its just a draft over the top of fuel to get it over the edge and the recycling fuel bowl for the level , the wheels on trolley will be fine but i recomend a longer trolley so the big wheels are center or axle is level with out rear of flywheels , this is a link to my old reverse lister a industrial with oringinal lister factory made A-B trolley



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Re: Lister A16 help required

Post by rich07961 on Mon Feb 15 2016, 21:17

Hi Kev, I see the point your making but looking at your vids I think my trolley is only a bit shorter than the original as my tank is well forward as per pic,






I might try and get smaller wheels to see if that helps, I have looked at some vids of As on shorter and taller trolleys and they seem to run although at starting I notice they rock backwards and forwards and bounce up and down until running properly, mine does not jump up and down but more to side to side like a car does when wheels are not balanced.

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Re: Lister A16 help required

Post by kevjhnsn on Tue Feb 16 2016, 02:00

know i see your trolley from a better view , wheel base and length look good to me and wheels and trolley look to be heavy enough to hold her steady, have you tryed to run her on a soft surface to see if she settles better , like a lawn or gravel drive .just in case the trolley is slightly lifting weight of one wheel, or allowing for twist in axles on the hard surface , just give it a try on softer ground and see if it inproves, p.s smaller wheels are fine on hard going ,but soon sink into the ground at rally and make for a work out when trying to move them,even on dry summer mnths on baked fields they will sink in 2"-3" over the weekend and get a wet one you need set of running bourds just to get it to trailer, anyway they are better on 2 1/2"+wide 6" plus diameter wheels and they should have a up and down bob with a slight back and forth rock on tarmac and concrete , but not usually a wabbley one
hope this helps
kev

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Re: Lister A16 help required

Post by Nixie on Tue Feb 16 2016, 08:03

Just a thought. Did you have the engine running before you stripped it down? I am just wondering why the flywheels were held in place with bolts in the keyway when you took them off.

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Re: Lister A16 help required

Post by rich07961 on Tue Feb 16 2016, 15:51

Hi yes it was running but did not run as it should and was desperate for a decoke which I now know the reason why, as Kev says as it rocks its putting to much fuel through carb all the time, as for flywheels did not really take any notice until I really looked into stripping and rebuild. each flywheel had a bolt as a guide for the guvnor side of crank, the bolt screws down into a slot in crank so when the gib key is put in the flywheel stays in that position.

Kev I put it on a grass area at the front of the house today and was still the same, maybe a little better but not enough to stop it from rocking, took the bull by the horns and swopped the flywheels but no difference at all but had to try, so I am back to square one and damaged paintwork to sort, I am at a loss and am feeling a bit despondent about it all, so need to walk away for a bit and get on with something else and hope for a magic wand/ miracle.

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Re: Lister A16 help required

Post by kevjhnsn on Wed Feb 17 2016, 20:29

rich07961 wrote:Hi yes it was running but did not run as it should and was desperate for a decoke which I now know the reason why, as Kev says as it rocks its putting to much fuel through carb all the time, as for flywheels did not really take any notice until I really looked into stripping and rebuild. each flywheel had a bolt as a guide for the guvnor side of crank, the bolt screws down into a slot in crank so when the gib key is put in the flywheel stays in that position.

Kev I put it on a grass area at the front of the house today and was still the same, maybe a little better but not enough to stop it from rocking, took the bull by the horns and swopped the flywheels but no difference at all but had to try, so I am back to square one and damaged paintwork to sort, I am at a loss and am feeling a bit despondent about it all, so need to walk away for a bit and get on with something else and hope for a magic wand/ miracle.

well thats them possablitys closed then,
the miss fire is sounding more like the guverors trying to slow its speed as the run on a system like open cranks ,just faster.
lets start and go from A to Z of reasons
1. is all the carb slide valve and linkage pivots free and oiled up
2.what is the speed and hp is rated on your spec plate, as yours is running a lot faster than any ive done before ??
have you had the needle speed screw valve out of carb ??
and governor weights free and none sticky??


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Re: Lister A16 help required

Post by rich07961 on Wed Feb 17 2016, 20:49

Hi Kev,

Another thing I tried today was to put her on blocks with the wheels off the ground and it was a bit better but was still rocking from side to side, but at least I was able to get her to run a bit better but not enough to stop her from running rich. Answer to 1. is yes all very free and oiled up. 2. 2 1/2 at 600 rpm and no not had the speed screw valve out and guvnor weights are free and none sticky.
I have had a thought about taking my Lister B flywheels off and trying them on my A just to see if it makes any difference or even putting the A on the B trolley as my B is running like a clock. many thanks Richard

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Re: Lister A16 help required

Post by kevjhnsn on Thu Feb 18 2016, 03:38

she seams to be running closer the to 700-750 and then runs for the 800-850 rpm area before the video ends, in my engine videos mine is a 600rpm running at apprx 580-600 rpm off my rev clock, with load they will settle and not hunt or surge, as you will know from you tank cooled

ok have you seen inside the fuel bowl while shes running

1.is the fuel is always pumping from tank ie a spurt about every 3 seconds

2. and fuel level always running over the ruturn slot, not backing up

3.if yes to 1 and 2 then remove the carb speed run/normal/stop jet all the way out,by removing the little screw on top of the speed knob,and watch out for the spring loaded detent needle or ball.this is for stopping it turning its self out or in while running, once needle is out make sure theres no corrosion on lower 5mm of brass or bad signs of wear or even the tip off the point end is not missing and check that its streight and no little bend in the end as this does happen and causes fueling issues while running, then refit to carb by winding it all the way down till it just stops then replace the captive screw ,making sure you can go from stop to start ,

4. im hoping that you are backing the fuel off after she starts to run from the start position back slowly to the run position and alot of these engines will run a lot closer to the stop are when theyve warmed up, as in my videos you will see me move from start to normal as soon as shes fired fr 10 secs or so, and when water is warming nicly i will go a click at a time to the most echo she will allow with out the miss firing for more than 5-10 secs before she gets enough to fire again,

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Re: Lister A16 help required

Post by rich07961 on Thu Feb 18 2016, 15:10

Hi Kev,
Thanks for giving me your time on this it is very much appreciated.

Yes to one and two, have done no three and yes to no four, today I readjusted the carb slide link rod and that has slowed her down and now only have a slight side to side movement and when guvnor kicks in it rocks forward and back as you would expect being on concrete video below.
That is the smoothest I can get it to run, rechecked timing and again played with advancing and retarding to see if any different, but nothing noticeable, changed the spark plug as well just in case, no difference, after running for about an hour I took plug out and was black and sooty that's with it running as per video, which is at its leanest setting. Least I know guvnor is working,  Smile

https://youtu.be/LYgJOLS0a0Q


Many thanks Richard

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Re: Lister A16 help required

Post by kevjhnsn on Thu Feb 18 2016, 20:34

sounding much better now, the sooting up of the sparkplug is normal for these when running off load ,you will usually need 2-3 plug changes a day day at the rallys, but if you run a alternator or a water or both at the same time singly the plugs a day will lower to 1-2 changes a day but both at the same time will be a clean before starting the next day or maybe just fire up for a few rallys no issue . but no load and they soot up, so all she needs is a few more rpms and the hunting will be less noticable ,and if youve set the valve gaps to the manual i and many others will recommend opening them up to closer than double the manual states ,due to the wear and tear over the years and can cause a valve to overheat or coke up
thanks again kev

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Re: Lister A16 help required

Post by rich07961 on Thu Feb 18 2016, 22:05

Hi Kev,


Many thanks, would valve gaps you suggest still apply if valves and guides had been replaced, which I have done on this.

Again thank you.


Regards

Richard

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Re: Lister A16 help required

Post by kevjhnsn on Tue Feb 23 2016, 02:47

just add about 8 thou to gaps and see if it helps stop the blow back in carb intake ,if it still has any
video sounds okay does she still kick side ways

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Re: Lister A16 help required

Post by rich07961 on Tue Feb 23 2016, 18:58

Hi Kev,

Not so you would notice very strange that was, its as though its settled for some reason, I have bought a tachometer and will play until I get to the 600rpm, I have adjusted the valves and no blow back, at one stage I was worried about the puff sound coming from exhaust but found that if I cover a couple of the holes on exhaust it goes away. All in all just need to play and run her for a few long hrs to run in, as at the moment not booked for a rally till August, again thanks for your help. Regards Richard

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Re: Lister A16 help required

Post by kevjhnsn on Wed Feb 24 2016, 18:12

hi richard
should be sorted then mate hope i was of use and eased your mind on a few things .
yeah the rpm is best closer to the 600rpm as theres only a pint of oil to get splashed up and around the bearings and the excess then runs to feed the timing gears in the side casting via the bronze slip rings on either side of the crankshaft ,dont forget to oil up the valve guides and tappets ect each time before a run , always best over oiled than dry running as so many do with these old listers,my way is a dribble is better than a rumble.
thanks again kev

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Re: Lister A16 help required

Post by rich07961 on Wed Feb 24 2016, 20:06

Hi Kev,
More than helpful, thank you. Regards Richard

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