Lister H4 Pump Disassembly

Hi Appletop, thanks for your input. Hopefully I will be able to compare the two types of joints in operation, as my pump now has scarf at one end and butt at the other. In all honesty I'm hoping not to be able to determine much, if any, different between the two. The actual work the pump will be asked to do, should not stress any of the components. As long as the pump operates effectively, without too much leakage around the seals, it will be perfectly good enough for me and be ready for the rally field.

As I mentioned in the previous post, up until now, the pump has been coupled to a Lister D to provide the power. The "D" is actually under-powered for a tight H4 pump but I'm hopeful it'll be able to at least run the pump to test it's operation. To enable that to happen the "D" needs to be put back together again so I can at least try. Over the last couple of days, in between finishing the pump rebuild, I have also been working on the "D". I had previously removed the flywheel, so that has been rubbed down and had primer, undercoat and the first layer of top coat applied. I have also removed the head and cleaned out the water jacket on the main engine block, separated the valve rocker assembly and removed the valves from the head. The bare casting was rubbed back and also went through the painting process. I'm hoping to complete these items in the next couple of days and then turn my attention to the main engine block and give that the paint treatment.

As the pump and engine are no longer on a single trolley, I have found all the additional parts to complete the outfit and have positioned them as a dry build, to check to see if everything will align and operate as it should. One thing that will change as a result of the new layout, is the pump will run in the opposite direction. I cannot see any issue with the function of the pump through reversing its direction of rotation but is the pump designed to work in one direction, due to the stresses applied to the pump gears and castings in operation. Any information on this would help me to finalise the layout design.

Neil.




Flywheel prior to being fully rubbed down.




Cleaning rust and debris out of the engine block water jacket.




Valve chest cleaned up with valves and rockers removed.




Water jacket half of the cylinder head.




Head rubbed down for painting.




Head and flywheel with a first layer of undercoat, having already had primer applied.




Serial number discovered on flywheel rim. Number 1/68246 which agrees with the engine identification plate.




Head ready for top coat.




Flywheel also awaiting application of top coat.




Pump set up with water tank, hose and delivery pipe. Note the black delivery pipe is actually my Petter exhaust pipe, with an angle piece in place of a straight collar.




Rear view of same.




Engine positioned to confirm belt alignment and positioning of the fast and loose pulley operating gear.




Rear view showing how the belt will operate.

Makes very little difference what way the pump turns so should be fine, if you feel it would be better the other way cross the belt, as for the D struggling to run it it should power that with no problems at all. If you feel it is under powered then fit a smaller pulley to the engine.

How tight is the pump to turn by hand, you may have over tightened the gland packings to much, I've found that its best to run the pump with the glands nipped up and allowed to leak, you then, one at a time, nip a gland until it weeps slightly as the gland will still need water to lubricate as dry joints will glaze and not seal, once you done one then do the other. The D should happily drive the pump. once youve done a couple of rally's you can then nip them up a tad more. you will notice under the rams a trough in the casting with holes to allow the water to drain away, the manufacturer new that the pump would leak otherwise the trough would not have been cast into the pump.

Maryalice

No trough on the H range Martin, they just dribble on the floor.....

I'm convinced mine had, I will have to look again, either way they still leak are you keeping well, I hope.

Maryalice

Hi all, thank's for your responses. Maryalice the pump is quite stiff but has eased over time, as the packing has settled in a bit. However as I noted in a previous post, there is very little clearance available between the the gland packing pieces and the cross shaft, so it is not possible to release the pressure at this time. As I am able to turn the pump over with one hand, using the pulley wheel, I'm hopeful it will work even if it might struggle to start with. I don't think there is a cast in trough, from memory, it used to leak onto the main casting under the ram.

The reason I was concerned about the ability of the "D" to drive the pump, is I remember it had to work quite hard to operate the pump when it was quite loose and leaked a lot. I have just found my pump instruction manual and that does suggest, for full duty rating the H4 pump should be paired with a 4.5 H.P. engine. Also interestingly it does give a direction of rotation as anti-clockwise when facing the outlets, but no reason given for that instruction.  For the light use I'm likely to put it to, I don't think it will cause any problems whichever direction it operates in.

I'm now back off to start to prepare the main engine block, for a splash and dash of paint. Then I can put it all back together again and see if I have been successful in bringing the pump back to life.

Neil

Hello everyone, as always my idea of a quick job turns into something a little bit more than I had planned. With the flywheel off and the head removed, I found I could lift the main engine block onto the bench. Once it was up there it didn't stand a chance, the spanners came out and it was soon in pieces. My excuse is it will make it easier to prep and paint, now it is in more manageable lumps. However I'm sure this will delay the first run of the pump, so much for a quick splash and dash!

Neil.




Engine block up on the bench, it didn't stand a chance. The spanners soon had their way.




Timing gear cover removed.




An empty vessel, all internals removed.




Crank assembly removed. Apart from renewing the external paint, there is no mechanical work required.




Timing gear internals, ready for a clean up.




Timing gear casing, awaiting prepping for some fresh paint.




Piston and con rod taken out, to be put safely away. All looks good with no work required.

My Lister D is a similar colour to the engine block on this one.

Please can anyone tell me what shade of green it is?

It dose/nt look to bad Neil with a bit of luck and a drop of paint you/l soon be there

Cheers Tony, I hope to get there soon, otherwise I'll be out of lock down and won't have an excuse for spending all my days in the garage!

Oldgit, as for the engine colour, if you mean as it is now, before it is repainted, then that I believe is Japlac Dark British Racing Green. This is actually the incorrect colour for Lister equipment and I am repainting it, in the supposedly correct shade of Mid Brunswick Green, Engine Enamel (not Coach Enamel), from Craftmaster paints, which is petrol and heat resistant, although not cheap. Don't forget computer screens may not represent colours totally correctly.

Neil.





Engine in the existing Dark British Racing Green and the pump in Mid Brunswick Green.

Thanks Neil,
I wounder if Lister used different shades of green, as mine definately seems darker than Mid Brunswick Green, and I doubt it ever appeared glossy.
I've known this engine since the 1950's.
It was kept in a dark, windowless shed, as back-up to drive the vacuum pump for milking; in case of a power cut, with just a trip out for a few weeks in summer to drive the Blackstone hay/straw elevator.

i have a Lister A I restored 30 years ago and for the last 10 years it hasnt left the shed but its getting darker in colour.

Martin P

Hi, I don't know what age your engine is but if it was produced during any period of shortages, as in during the war or rationing, I have heard that many manufactures would have to make do with what ever was available. Some manufactures actually producing equipment in a "War Finish", I'm not certain if Lister did though. So it may be possible that different shades of paint could have been used throughout those periods of manufacture. Actual colour may not have been as important as getting the new equipment out of the door.

It sounds as though you may have an intriguing engine there, especially as you have known it for so long. If it is possible for you to post a picture on here, with some of the history details, then I'm sure others would find it interesting.

Neil

As far as I'm aware, Lister used mid-Brunswick green on their engines of this sort of era.  The paint darkened with time and the gloss would have also gone off it in time too. There was bound to be a slight bit of variation between batches of paint too, particularly in the early days, and maybe during the war when the object was to get the job done as soon as possible.

However, I believe they did produce some 'war finish' engines but, from what I've read, these were of a slightly lighter shade of green, rather than darker.  I have a 1943 2hp wartime Lister D but there was no sign of the stencilled 'War Finish' lettering on it, however, the crankshaft is made of cast iron, due to steel being in short supply at the time it was made.  I suspect wartime shortages of mid-Brunswick green paint may have been short-lived and spasmodic at the Lister factory, rather like the shortages of certain goods at the moment, rather than a long-operating situation over a year or more.  

As for the trough on H-series pumps, like @Appletop says, there's no trough on mine either, it just waters the grass very gently at rallies.  

Glad to see some progress being made on the pump and D, I'm looking forward to seeing it running.  I've just found another Lister D, a late 30s/early 40s job still in its original clothes, which I have first refusal on.  So I might end up with another one - this will stay in working clothes though as I'm tired of painting.  Might make a nice exhibit: 3 early 40s Lister Ds, one fully restored, one half-and-half, and one in working clothes, all lined up next to each other!

If you look in the Lister D book by David Edgington you will see a D painted in the wartime colour, it was a matt green similar to that used on military vehicles during WWII.

Maryalice

maryalice wrote:If you look in the Lister D book by David Edgington you will see a D painted in the wartime colour, it was a matt green similar to that used on military vehicles during WWII.

Maryalice

From memory (can't be bothered to walk to the bookshelf, it's too hot!), it was a sort of pea green, rather than olive drab matt. However, was this a photo of a re-pained engine, or was it original and untouched? I imagine a thin coat of 'war finish' paint might have deteriorated and been lost to the ravages of time sooner than two coats of MB Green gloss over one of primer/undercoat?

Hi, well all this is very interesting. David Edgington always asserted that the humble Lister D was anything but boring, with so many variants and subtle differences, created throughout the production period. It is all these details which can peak the interest of even the most sceptical of stationary engine enthusiast.

Jules I think your idea of a trio of Lister D's, demonstrating different levels of restoration, would look splendid on the rally field. I hope you're successful in acquiring the last one for your display.

I have spent some time today, properly cleaning out the inside of the crankcase and then preparing it for rubbing down, by sealing off all the crankcase holes with tape to prevent the ingress of dust and grit whilst it is being sanded down.




Looking at the residual gunge inside crankcase, even though the oil had already been changed earlier, before the first run.




Some of the sludge scraped out of crankcase.




Crankcase having been flushed out with cleaner and then rinsed out with a water hose, now drying in the sun.




Henry doing a proper job of cleaning out the water jacket. Loads more debris found, even though it had been cleaned out before.




All openings taped off, ready for sanding down.

Neil,
I have approx ten Lister D's from a Spec 13 to one of the last made and they are all different in some way, I have a Gas carburetor which one day will adorn one of the engines.

Maryalice

Neil,

I will endeavor to take pictures of my engine and post. This may take some time as I part dismantled it some years ago. I
decoked the head and lapped in the valves, also I painted the head with green Hammerite plus black (to try and match the original colour), now wish I hadn't

At that point I was discovered 'wasting my time', by my wife, who had so many more important things for me to do.
So i now have to gather the various parts; some of which are five miles away, and get back to working on it.
Don't hold your breath.

[quote="oldgit"]Neil,
   

At that point I was discovered 'wasting my time', by my wife, who had so many more important things for me to do.
So i now have to gather the various parts; some of which are five miles away, and get back to working on it.
 Don't hold your breath.[/quote]

I had a wife like that, although at the time it was a sad day since I've left I am finding it actually quite nice.

Hi everyone, I see there are some seriously knowledgeable, Lister specialist collectors around here, with Jules, aka A Lister, with his wonderfully presented Listers, which could get more interesting soon. Maryalice with a collection of at least 10 D types, all different and I imagine if there were 10 more, I bet they would all be different in one way or another as well. Then there's "Oldgit" who has an original D type which he has known of, or owned for 50 years, tucked away, just waiting to be brought back out, once he has finished all those other jobs. Luckily I don't seem to have the same issues as either "Oldgit" or indeed "Appletop". I've managed to stay married for 40 years and she still lets me play with my toys, be that motorbikes, engines or working on a persevered railway. For the last 70 days of lock-down, I have spent nearly everyday working in the garage on the pump, the Jowett, or the "D". So far I've been spared any pressure to undertake other domestic duties.

Today I've continued to rub down the main crankcase and then applied primer as a base coat. I then applied another top coat on the cylinder head and the flywheel. If I'm lucky that will be the final coat on those two items. I'll leave them alone for a few days and if I'm happy with the results, then they'll be ready for refitting. Today I also received a package of spare parts, including the valve washers for the pump, timing chain for the "D", gaskets and transfers, spark plug and condenser, so hopefully when everything is ready I should be in a position to complete the rebuild and attempt to try the completed set out.

Neil.




Crankcase rubbed down, ready for a base coat of primer.




Small items primed, these were taken back to bare metal.




Crankcase primed.




Cylinder Head and flywheel, in (final?) top coat.

Not sure about the "seriously knowledgeable" bit, we just make it up as we go along!!
One good thing about the Lister range is there is plenty of infomation out there and a lot of people who know a lot about them, this is probably why the D is always sited as a good place to start.

The likes of Petter, Ruston Hornsby, Villiers etc seem to have less infomation around so are a bit harder to find infomation on or parts for but as things are going there does seem to be more becoming avalable. Those who collect the latter can only hope for the day to come when we have as much info as the Lister owners...

Yet again I agree with Appletop, there are friends and others who have gone before us and we learned it from them and the mistakes we made, there are as Appletop says a lot of original copies and good reproductions. Lister made engines to a price that everyday Farmers could afford, the Lister D could be put along side the Ford Cortina, thousands made over a very long time and very reliable. I took an F type, an upgraded D, to Dorset several years ago and after the second day it squealed to a halt, investigation found the dipper had come off the conrod, the white metal of the big end was spread around inside so I cleaned it all out changed the oil and then ran the engine for the rest of the rally with no problems or knocking and fitted a new big end when I returned home, there are many makes of engine that you couldnt do that without out severe damage.

Maryalice

Well guys, it's a good job there are the people out there with the knowledge and those who are willing to share it with others. Let's hope there is a next generation of enthusiasts to take the hobby forward. With the lack of engineering education in schools, or the need or ability to service your own vehicles nowadays, I worry if there will be the interest in our hobby in the years ahead. I imagine the average age of the stationary enthusiast is getting older, year on year, with a lack of the younger generation joining the ranks. The same issue also blights the railway preservation sector, who are struggling to recruit new blood to keep the societies alive.

Today I've been continuing to clean, prepare and paint the remaining Lister D parts, ready for the final rebuild. This included undercoating the main engine block, inspection plate and oil filler cover. I also cleaned out the timing assembly casting, masked it up and rubbed it down. I wasn't looking forward to this task as the the casting is an awkward shape and I thought it would be difficult to clean and rub down properly. In the end it didn't turn out to be too bad and is now ready for the first coat of paint. Overall there is not too much more to do, I just need to keep going and get to the finishing post before either my enthusiasm runs out, or the lock down is lifted and I end up having other things to deal with!

Neil.




Engine block and covers in undercoat, looking gloss as the paint was still wet.




Timing gear assembly being washed out with cleaning fluids.




Cleaned timing internals.




Exterior of cleaned timing unit.




Masked up ready for sanding down.




Rubbed back ready for painting. Edges taken back to bare metal due to flaking paint.

My paternal grandfather was a model engineer and had his two Grandsons making wooden whistles by the time I was five, my Brother four, my Father was an engineer in Electrical stuff, both my Brother and I went into engineering and if my Daughter allows me my first and only fourteen month old Grandson will be introduced into my workshop to learn to use his hands for the good of it

Maryalice