Lister H3 pump strip

After seeing Neil strip his H4 pump, I thought it was time to drag my H3 out from below the bench, its been there 6 years maybe,
A couple of days when I could get the time to get to it I set about getting things apart, I would love to take photos as I am going along but I just dont have the inclination to stop and and take pictures mid process so unfortunatly its photos of the pump seperate, there was a fair bit of fighting as it was all frozen solid, but some penetrating fluid, heat and patience I have it apart.
I had to cut the cross bar to get the side rods off, but also had to remove the pulley to get one of thoses rods off too. thats took a night and morning, with about as much pain I would want to put to a cast pulley with some heat to encourge some movement,
I am going to try coating the main ram with Devcon and machine it back to see if it will stand the rubbing on the seals before getting another bit of bar.
I had to remove the 2 smaller drive gears which was a task too as while I drove them both on a bit to free the key, the one on the non drive end picked up and fought me all the way off, I thought I was going to have to cut the bar, but no I got it off too, the head came off the key but I built it up with weld and dress it back, it will be good enough for reassembly and I dont intend pulling it apart again,
undecided if I will paint it or not yet, dont think so at this time, just get it back together sometime and get it pumping.

here are the pictures,

Untitled by chrismac2012, on Flickr

built up key
Untitled by chrismac2012, on Flickr

Damaged packing glands, both are brazed
Untitled by chrismac2012, on Flickr

Guards
Untitled by chrismac2012, on Flickr

Untitled by chrismac2012, on Flickr

Untitled by chrismac2012, on Flickr

Devcon coated ram,
Untitled by chrismac2012, on Flickr

It will be interesting to see if the devcon will take a decent hold, I have used it in the past and am hoping for a good result, it wont be the end of the world if I have to get a bit of bar if not.

Chris

Hi, it's good to see you are going to have a go at restoring your pump to working order. At least my H4 was in a better condition to start with, giving me an easier task to take on. I hope you enjoy(?) the process and are ultimately successful in resurrecting what looks to be a challenging project. I will be interested to see how well the ram renovation turns out, as you say there is little to loose but it could prove to be a workable solution for others with corroded rams. I did wonder if Devcon could be used to repair the broken casting on my water outlet flange, or is it not designed for this type of repair?

It will be interesting to see what engine you use to run the pump with, once it is working. Is it going to be partnered with a fixed engine or will you use a variety of different ones to allow you change how you display it, at various shows?

Good luck with your endeavours, hope it all goes well.

Neil.



I wondered if Devcon would be a suitable compound to repair this item?

Not seen that Devcon stuff before, looks an interesting repair.

So the Devcon coated ram, I am a little dissapointed I did not take a photo of it before I started as there was 2/3mm of loss due to corrosion on the centre part of the ram,  
While I was turning the ram between centers it was noted that more material was coming off one side compared the the other, I slipped up and should have taken more care of the original condition and measured it rather than just slapping the devcon on and expecting it to turn off, job done,  
So after I spent a while at it and it was looking like a no go, I came in for a cup of tea, and logged in and noticed some interest, (thanks for that) which gave me the get up and go to apply some more devcon to the areas needed, and see if it will work,
One end started to laminate which I guess was maybe done to poor preperation although the entire length got the same rub down and clean.
So here is how it was after the first day,

Untitled by chrismac2012, on Flickr

Untitled by chrismac2012, on Flickr

Untitled by chrismac2012, on Flickr

The right hand side seemed to have some rust still present so hoping thats all removed   and it has a better bond this time, I am going to get it close to size and emery it the last bit then, to try and keep a full coating rather that bonding lines to start to peal off.

Neil, I think I would opt for either brazing or welding that flange. Unsure if any chemical metal would have the strength being bolted down.

Chris

Some more stripping, I spent a while warming and letting the brass caps cool through out the day they were solid and would not move with just penetrating fluid alone, so
set about yesterday morning for a morning of struggles and pain, they span out with easy, I could not believe the difference, time certainly helps here,
The pump has had a repair which I never noticed until yesterday, not to worry its all part of its history, but a crack on the front cap might need some attention, I will propably grind out as little as possible and weld it up and dress flush.

Untitled by chrismac2012, on Flickr

Untitled by chrismac2012, on Flickr

Untitled by chrismac2012, on Flickr

Untitled by chrismac2012, on Flickr

Chris

Went for a repair on the cracked weld today, knowing I could be opening a can of worms, sure enough, goodness knows what was used to repair it initally but I could not get cast rods to even think about leaving anything reasonable so used Argo Braze which managed to just about give me enough molten metal to work with and dress back, you can see the mixture of metals in the photo.
With cast its not always easy to get a good bond line and often undercut is seen, there is a small lack of fusion on one side which I can live with as its no where near the crack, as long as it does not leak, I am confident it wont but if it does leak, I will use some boss white or the like to help seal it.
Got the bent priming pipe out as well so starting to reassemble, after reading Neils post regarding the gland packing I have cancelled my graphite order and looking for PTFE,

 Untitled by chrismac2012, on Flickr

Untitled by chrismac2012, on Flickr

Chris

Hi Chris, good to see you were successful in removing those brass caps, I imagine they could definitely fight you all the way and still win. I see your skill levels are well above mine, with your obvious ability with a welding torch, especially with difficult materials. I hope the rest of your renovation goes just as well, although I'm sure there will be challenges on the way, there wouldn't be any fun otherwise!

I note that you have used my experience with fitting the packing material to help you decide what you're going to do. I think it is great that the experience of one person on the forum, can help others make their decisions. However in this instance, I would caution that my experience is limited to this single use of packing. I have to admit that I didn't choose any particular type, graphite, PTFE or other. I was offered some material of the correct size, from a fellow member on the forum and was supplied with two types. I have to say that my initial feeling was to use the graphite, as I felt it was more likely to be nearer to that which would have been used originally. However once I tried to use the graphite type, I struggled to cut it and get it to fit as it should. As I had the luxury of having two types available, I tried my luck with the PTFE and found that it did seem easier to use. I think one of the issues with the graphite was, it was less rigid, making more difficult to cut. This was either due to the softer nature of graphite coating over PTFE, or possibly the graphite material was of a looser, more open weave. The other thing to note, is that I have attempted to use a scarf joint on one end of my pump. However I have not had any feedback on whether I have correctly interpreted how a scarf joint should be cut. So I would warn against following any of my methods, until they have been endorsed by those who know a lot more than I do.

Neil

Hi Neil, when you put your post up about the graphite packing I remembered the issues being had the same as you on my H1 pump years ago, only issue now is that I cant find PTFE the correct size and graphite is available at the size I need,
What you mention about learning from one another is the greatest benfit from a forum and why I dont bother with facebook much regarding anything engine based, a look thats about my lot.

So the devcon coated ram could have been a sucess if I was keen to get back to origional size of 2 1/4" (57.1mm) but opted turn it down to 55mm remove all the pitting meaning rather than the 1/2" gland packing I now need 14mm (thinking 1/2" would probably do and compress to the required size but I will see if i can get some 14mm PTFE)
The pump ID is 3 1/4" (for future reference) and the ram should be 2 1/4" meaning 1/2 gland packing is a nice fit.

So the pump has had its new cross bar machined and fitted up temporary.
Untitled by chrismac2012, on Flickr

Chris

Hi Chris, your level of renovations is well above my capability. Turning the ram down and machining a new cross bar is not something I could undertake. It is good to see this level of engineering being utilised on a basic pump, rather than being reserved for exotic engines. Hope you are successful in your search for some suitable gland packing material to fit the reduced ram. I also hope you're able to see the project through, resulting in a fully functioning pump, from a very sad, derelict looking unit.

Neil.

I am just lucky Neil that thats the line of work I am in, it fairly helps with this sort of thing,

Making replacement bolts for the gland packing followers, keeping the 7/16 whitworth thread, I turned down bolts which were as hard as the devil to run a die down, go there in the end though. A bit of fetteling required one they were fitted as due to the repairs on the followers they are out of shape.

Untitled by chrismac2012, on Flickr

Untitled by chrismac2012, on Flickr

Untitled by chrismac2012, on Flickr

Waiting now for the gland packing to come home, I ended up reordering the graphite stuff as no ptfe was the correct size.

Chris

Chris looking good, hope the packing works out alright. I imagine, as your pump is a smaller variant of mine, the packing material will have a smaller cross sectional area and may therefore hold its shape better when you come to cut and shape it.

Although I've not posted any updates on my pump project in the last couple of days, I have been working on it. However I have only been redoing some woodwork on the trolley. I had tried to reuse some old soft wood from the broken up frame, only to find it was rotten in the core and split right across the end when clamped up. I decided it wasn't worth posting anything on the forum, in case I just proved how not to build a trolley and ended up boring everyone! Hopefully once I've got back to where I had previously got to, before I had to start again, I will be back with further updates.

Hope you continue to have good progress on your project,

Neil.

So its been a while since I have managed to do anything, partly due to the gland packing supplier having issues with the post office not delivering the first parcel, anyway I got some this week so went ahead with fitting the larger 14mm packing on the smaller diameter ram,
This is how I cut it with a junor hacksaw and it worked a treat, no issues and it went together with reasonable ease, butt joints 180 degs apart.
I used the edge of the vice as a guide and with a small nip it held the packing in shape.
Untitled by chrismac2012, on Flickr

Untitled by chrismac2012, on Flickr

Getting ready for a run soon, no issues with the packing fouling the cross bar so thats a relief.

Chris

Good so far. If you do suffer leaks on your welded repairs try some LSX, it's silicone based and better than Boss White.

Hi Chris, that's looking good, certainly your pump ram looks far better than mine. The gland packing seems to be a good snug fit, so hopefully it will work well for you.

Have you now got an idea of what engine will be used to drive the pump, or do you have a variety of options and you'll decide as you go?

I have just posted an update on my project and hope to be testing my H4 pump in the next few days, if the Lister D is up to it!

Cheers,

Neil.

Appletop wrote:Good so far. If you do suffer leaks on your welded repairs try some LSX, it's silicone based and better than Boss White.

Thanks for the info, I'll keep that in mind.

Chris

neil (LE) wrote:Hi Chris, that's looking good, certainly your pump ram looks far better than mine. The gland packing seems to be a good snug fit, so hopefully it will work well for you.

Have you now got an idea of what engine will be used to drive the pump, or do you have a variety of options and you'll decide as you go?

I have just posted an update on my project and hope to be testing my H4 pump in the next few days, if the Lister D is up to it!

Cheers,

Neil.

Hi Neil, I am glad I opted to reduce the ram diameter and get the next size up for the packing, it has seemed to work well, time will tell but there is plenty of room for a nip on the gland packing followers so I can only think it will be fine.

I have generally left all my pumps and so on on seperate trolleys as it saves room for me storing away, but I like to easy of setting up to have the engine and pump mounted in 1. this one will sit for a while though until I decide what to do. I'll give it a run and make sure its all fine and store it, I have also pulled an H1 out and given it a refurb, well it had all the work done just needed one of the valves drilled out and a new brass pin made for the rubber to slide and locate on,

Hopefully your lister D will be up to the task, its looking great,

Chris