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Piston rings

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Piston rings

Post by Ibonaol on Sat May 11 2013, 07:03

Hi I am new to this forum so hello to all. After 2 listers I am on my 3rd restoration project of a Rushton 6ps and after freeing a seized piston I have low compression. I have ground in the valves and checked ring alignment and compression is now better but not as I would like. Where might I get a replacement set of rings. Thanks.

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Re: Piston rings

Post by fowlerfan on Sat May 11 2013, 08:44

Suggest a set of Clupet Rings from the Clupert Piston Ring and Gauge Company, Cumbria.

These rings are each like a small sprial spring and they are great for engines with worn bores as they take up wear and the design means they don't have a ring gap like a traditional plain ring.

Cheers Dave

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Re: Piston rings

Post by Ibonaol on Sat May 11 2013, 09:19

Thanks Dave will look into it

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Re: Piston rings

Post by nutgone on Sat May 11 2013, 09:19

It could well be the grooves that are worn in the piston itself, in which case they would need machining out square & either ring spacers or oversize rings putting in.

I've never heard of those Clupert rings, I'll have to look into those, they sound very interesting.

If you want normal rings they are best sourced from the states as they are much cheaper than over here (dunno why, but it seems to be the case). You will need to know what size they are though. I know of a company but can't remember right now, will look for it & get back.

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Re: Piston rings

Post by fowlerfan on Sat May 11 2013, 09:36

The whole subject on piston rings is quite interesting, will do somemore reading.

I found some info on Clupet rings for you, including the contact details:-http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/antique-machinery-history/clupet-piston-rings-150209/

For plain rings my Dad is looking into getting some for a Petter M 1.5 HP just now, from Philip Daintree, roughly £30 for the set of plain rings which isn't too bad.

Cheers Dave

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Re: Piston rings

Post by matt86 on Sat May 11 2013, 10:21

Clupet piston rings is a great company , just had a pair of oil rings sent for my lister D and was £16 posted . not to bad if you ask me . and verry quick service too .

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Re: Piston rings

Post by Foden on Sat May 11 2013, 13:03

The Wolseley that Abes has just purchased is fitted with Clupet rings. Never used them myself as at one time delivery was literally months, things appear to have improved since then though. I have always used John Cox at Cox and Turner (since Trevor Maddocks called it a day) as they come by return post if you pay with a card. Did buy a pair of rings from Thorntons once for a BSA Dandy moped, they cost £40 so I didn't go there again!

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Re: Piston rings

Post by matt86 on Sat May 11 2013, 15:48

Foden wrote:The Wolseley that Abes has just purchased is fitted with Clupet rings. Never used them myself as at one time delivery was literally months, things appear to have improved since then though. I have always used John Cox at Cox and Turner (since Trevor Maddocks called it a day) as they come by return post if you pay with a card. Did buy a pair of rings from Thorntons once for a BSA Dandy moped, they cost £40 so I didn't go there again!

Pete.


Pete i did get told by alan to give him a chase up if did not hear anything with 3 days , so i did then he sent them out the next day . cant moan . Cox and turner never seem to get back to my messages i leave on the answer phone .

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Re: Piston rings

Post by Ibonaol on Sat May 11 2013, 17:29

Thanks to all. Bore and grooves dont appear worn to much. When ordering rings what dimensions will I need. I'm guessing piston diameter and groove width. I haven't got any literature on engine. Have been in contact with Ray Hooley and can get stuff through him if required.

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Re: Piston rings

Post by matt86 on Sat May 11 2013, 18:18

Ibonaol wrote:Thanks to all. Bore and grooves dont appear worn to much. When ordering rings what dimensions will I need. I'm guessing piston diameter and groove width. I haven't got any literature on engine. Have been in contact with Ray Hooley and can get stuff through him if required.

Phone up Alan at clupet piston ring company and he will tell you what he needs to know , Have a set of verniers handy . I have a didgital set very handy if you ask me .


click the link for Details

http://www.192.com/atoz/business/maryport-ca15/pistons-and-piston-rings/clupet-piston-ring-gauge-co/11b4f353f54c2ca91d231d938116030634d7d619/ml/

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Re: Piston rings

Post by Ibonaol on Sat May 11 2013, 20:20

Ok Matt thanks.

Ian

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Re: Piston rings

Post by nutgone on Sat May 11 2013, 22:11

I think it would need something a bit more accurate than digital verniers. Probably best to get the correct sizes from any available literature.

Verniers are only one step up from a steel rule, they're not to be trusted for precision machining, digital or not. The only way to accurately measure anything on an engine is with a micrometer.

But, verniers could give you a ballpark figure to work from if they are a common stock size. However, if they're some oddball size then you could end up with the wrong rings.


Last edited by nutgone on Sat May 11 2013, 22:22; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Piston rings

Post by nutgone on Sat May 11 2013, 22:20

If it's just normal rings you're after then TBH you'd be better off using someone like Cox & Turner (not necessarily Cox & Turner though). But if they are a standard stock size then it would be a lot cheaper, & probably better, to go to this company....

http://www.pistonrings.net/

The may be based in the states, but most common rings from them cost on average less than half the price of the British companies, even after postage.

Many of these British companies are quite small firms & many of them seem a bit unreliable to say the least (like not answering calls or messages & taking ages to send stuff out) almost like a cottage industry, they let themselves down at the end of the day. I know the Otto company (linked to above) are very good & pretty reliable.

I've also heard bad reports on modern rings not fitting well in the bore (a very good retired engineer I visited the other day had bought new rings from a company in this country for a Stuart Turner, he said "They fit where they touch" & was not impressed with them, the trouble is you can't bed in rings if they aren't good enough to run the engine in the first place), this could be something to do with the "cottage industry" of imperial sized rings in this country. The USA still work in feet & inches, so they do this stuff all the time & to good standards.

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Re: Piston rings

Post by matt86 on Sat May 11 2013, 23:27

vernier calipers are fine for me . As from my experience when measuring rings there are common thicknesses of piston rings , as when you speak to a expert on the phone he will tell you what the size is closest to the gap you measure . and for the diamiter of piston you measure the skirt of the piston .

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Re: Piston rings

Post by kevjhnsn on Sun May 12 2013, 06:05

why didnt i know about these crumpet rings
what a great idea they seam too
so will be ordering some soon as i have 3 or 4 engines im trying to find affordable rings for
i found a man with all the original spare parts from the left over factory stock
but wont sell them to me with out the pistons scratch scratch but there not in a piston and ring set box ,there in 2 boxes 1x piston 1x rings ??? Twisted Evil Twisted Evil but hes let me down and others on here in the past to scratch and this is how said man "from the midlands area" makes an income scratch Rolling Eyes
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Re: Piston rings

Post by nutgone on Sun May 12 2013, 09:30

You're better off going to that company in the states Kev, they're a lot cheaper.

As for those Clupert rings, I've heard mixed reports on them, so I wouldn't all go jumping for them like they're such a great idea. If a bore is worn it's worn, no fancy rings will get you past that. Think about it, the kind of speed a piston is travelling at (even in a low revving engine) those rings simply wouldn't have time to expand & contract, there's a lot of friction & other forces involved, for a start the ring has itself to act against, as well as being pushed (hard) against the top or bottom of the groove. So if a bore is worn badly-uneven they're not going to work. Trouble is I don't know enough people who've used them to make an accurate assessment, but the ones I do know have said they're no different to normal rings really. There's just no escaping it, a worn bore is a worn bore. But, as long as a show engine runs good enough for the shows that should be enough for most of us. I think people can get carried away with this stuff (obviously the OP has a ring problem, but once run for a while the compression could come back up), these engines don't need to be like brand new inside, they will run fine with worn bores, worn rings, worn bearings etc etc etc, they aren't working for a living any more.

I'm also lead to believe that this man (the Clupert ring bloke) does not have the correct machinery to make proper oil control rings, so even then you'd be best going to another company.

Personally I would stick to normal rings & use a larger company. It looks like a good idea, but as an engineer I can't see it actually working any differently to normal rings inside a running engine.

as for vernier calipers, they are not an accurate measuring tool, simple as. They are a very handy tool, I use mine at least once every day, but they are not to be relied upon for precision components. I spent a good couple of years in college training to be an engineer, that is one of the many facts I took with me. It is not an opinion, therefore not a point of conjecture I'm afraid.

I do love my digital vernier though, so don't get me wrong, I think everyone should have one, from little boys to housewives (honestly, I do) so please get one next time Lidl or Aldi have them in cheap if you don't already have one, but know that they have limitations, largely based upon the accuracy of their zero point.

Oh yes, & if it's a digital vernier you get, do NOT oil it. If oil gets on the slider it will not read properly (I think it's the top edge it gets it's reading from). The instruction book should tell you that anyway. Ideally it should always go back in it's box, I even keep the silica gel desiccant (the little sachet which soaks up damp) in with mine & keep the lid closed on it when it's not in use. But it's in a really good place, just above the bench at a perfect arms reach so I can open the box & grab it, single handed, without even looking. that's how useful it is to me.

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Re: Piston rings

Post by matt86 on Sun May 12 2013, 14:16

Nuts well i have 2 oil control rings off him and the fit the piston and the bore fine ... and i have a oversized bore too . I will use him again as service has been fine for me . cox and turner i will not try again as over 6 times i have tried them and only 1 sucess and that when a mate of mine went there . Phone them and leave a message but never get back to me Sad

So if try another company il try in the states .

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Re: Piston rings

Post by nutgone on Sun May 12 2013, 18:58

Would like to see what they looked like, those oil rings. I heard he didn't have the special machine to put the slots in them, so drilled holes instead. Unless he just sources oil rings from another wholesaler now. Or he might have bought a slot cutter by now.

I'm sure they'll work fine anyway. It is nice to support a small business if you can & I have heard very good reports on his shipping, so no complaints there. Apparently one person I talked to had some Clupert spring rings made up for an odd size & he had them within a week. so the service is good by that account, just the lack of oil slots that made me think.

I still don't see the virtue of those spring rings though, I can't see it working for an uneven bore, & if the bore is even then you might as well use normal rings.

I have been told that the Clupert ring company does do normal rings, & their prices for these are very reasonable indeed (much cheaper than Cox & Turner), but I was told to source an oil ring elsewhere (for the reasons above). I might well go to him for my missing (broken) Lister A compression ring. (not sure if I'm going to put an oil ring in that one, it's been suggested to leave it out & it's not a massive job to put one in afterwards if necessary).

Also, a small concern like Cluperts could well be the place to go if you needed something like one of those oiler rings for a Lister A. Most people say you can't get them any more, but I bet if you phoned Cluperts up & explained what it was he could make you one up. Might be worth remembering these little companies like that for these jobs.

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Re: Piston rings

Post by stationary stu on Mon May 13 2013, 12:22

Kev I'm in the same boat as you, I've never heard of them, looks like some people are keeping secrets about the good stuff. Laughing Laughing Laughing

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Re: Piston rings

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