Villiers poor spark (post moved to suitable section)

villiers poor spark
villiersblp Yesterday at 4:43 pm

.Hi I am Brian a new member.
I did post on the new members area and thanks for the welcome.

My villiers mark 2 I have cleaned and replaced the coil, condenser and H/T lead with a new.
Set all the points and timing spun it over with a drill but only the very smallest spark can just be seen.

No spark at all with a plug on end of H/T lead. no plug cap.

The flywheel still has a strong magnetism when I put a spanner on it.

Not sure what to do now Any ideas welcome Brian.
villiersblp


Posts: 4
Join date: 2012-10-27
Location: West Yorkshire


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. Re: villiers poor spark
nutgone Yesterday at 6:26 pm

.The mods might move this thread to another area (should probably be in General Issues) but until then I'll jump in & see if I can help.

Is the magneto coil new? These Villiers engines are notorious for going through coils (they tend to corrode with moisture).

Do you have a multimeter or electrical test meter which can test resistance or continuity? If you do, or can get your hands on one, you can test the coil to see if it's OK or not.

Meanwhile, welcome to the forum from me. .

_________________
(apologies for my avatar, I'm working on an engine one, that's all I got in the right size for now).
The name's Matt, but call me Nutts if you like, there's already enough Matt's about.
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. villiers poor spark
villiersblp Yesterday at 11:02 pm

.Thanks nutgone for your post.

Yes the coil is new from ebay using a meter between end of H/T lead and engine I get 5K

Also a new condenser fitted together with a new copper H/T lead. The points set at .015 and timing marks set together. But still only the faintest spark can just be seen. I run the engine with a drill so as to get a good speed. Brian.
villiersblp


Posts: 4
Join date: 2012-10-27
Location: West Yorkshire


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. Re: villiers poor spark
nutgone Yesterday at 11:13 pm

.Well, you've got me stumped. I've got 2 more theories which spring to mind....

Could it be a bad earth somewhere? Check coil to chassis (also the low tension side of things, LT coil should be around an ohm or so) basically check all earths (I had something recently with a bad earth causing a weak spark) on a previously screened magneto.

The other thing is the spark plug. Just because it's new doesn't necessarily mean it's any good. You should always check continuity between the terminal & the centre electrode, you'd be surprised just how often there's a high resistance there. Also, what's your gap set to? Anything with a magneto should never be set wider than .018", or so I read in a piece by one of the country's foremost magneto experts in a Velocette motorcycle club magazine article. He recommends no more than .016" & says motorcyclists on old magneto machines should set new plugs to .015" to allow for wear (erosion). I've since found out some (possibly all) old flywheel magnetos can take a bigger gap, but never more than .020" it will wear the coil out (eventually)

Another thing springs to mind as well. Can you test the condenser? Or possibly try another one in there? Many new condensers are found to be faulty & a recent chat to another guy who's pretty hot on mags revealed that condensers are more often the source of troubles.

I hope something here helps, if not then come back to us, I'm sure we'll discover what's up sooner or later..

_________________
(apologies for my avatar, I'm working on an engine one, that's all I got in the right size for now).
The name's Matt, but call me Nutts if you like, there's already enough Matt's about.
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Posts: 404
Join date: 2012-07-04
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Hi Brian sorry but I've moved your post to a more suitable section.

Can I add to your problem, have you got good clean connection, if you've replaced with new parts there shouldn't be a problem.

Stu.

As I am new I am still working out how to opperate this forum but thanks for the posts.

Yes all the mag has been stripped down and all BUT the points have been replaced and wires resoldered brand new coil and condenser and copper H/T lead fitted.

There has been no change in spark from the first time I tested it to now with all the new parts fitted.

The spark can just be seen in the dark when end of H/T lead very close upto engine block.
I may have to send it to a mag. service engineer

Thanks for all the comments

I have now sent the back plate with all the parts fitted to Vintage Magnetos.

I will update you when I have some information.

Brian

Brian you'll get a good job done by Vintage Mags but it might be a bit costly as some Villiers ignition parts are in short supply and this pushes the prices up.

Keep us informed of the outcome,

Stu.

Suppose it could be the magnets, but it's still worth heeding the advice given earlier RE spark plugs. I always give them a test from top terminal to centre electrode, which should be zero ohms. You'd be surprised how many don't pass this simple test, & will only serve to shorten the life of your magneto.

Anyway, keep us posted, I'd like to know what it was that's been causing all this trouble.

As my first engine is away I have been looking at my second engine a villiers mark1 this is a complete mower but due to lack of space I am removing all but the engine.

At first I thought my look was out, as there was no spark at all when spun over. But after lots of work and time relacing the H/T lead and fixing the spring contact at the end at the other end of the H/T lead, clean and set the points then lots of spark at the plug. The carb. is also clean both inside and out. So with luck it will start when I try it later this week.

I have just bought a pump from ebay so I hope to set it up with one of my engines.
Post you all later Brian

good good keep plodding on
and hope it fires up for you later on
and im hoping the pump is what you want it to be mate
catch you later
kev

Sounds as if you've been busy Brian and should have your second engine up and running very soon. What pump have you been winning or you going to wait till you have it before giving all the details.

Stu.

Hi all this is a happy Brian, number 2 engine running and revs sounds good, may need some work but OK for now.

One thing I have to ask you about. I spun the engine over many times but it would not start so I removed the plug only to find the plug gap closed. Reset the gap but it happened again plug gap closed.

So I fitted 2 plug washers to prevent the piston hitting the plug. Then it started and run well I found it ran better with .025" plug gap than .015".

I am using new NGK AB6 and a NGK AB 2 plugs

Any comments ???

The pump is a bronze geared pump from ebay not seen it yet. Brian
would like to put some smilies but not sure how to do it.

You should be using a short reach plug in this engine, my guess is it's a long reach one.

Not sure about .025" gap on a magneto, but should be ok with a flywheel mag. Personally I wouldn't go over .020" myself, as it could eventually burn out the mag coil. There should be a plug gap spec written somewhere on the engine though, which should be the same for pretty much all Villiers engines. I'd be inclined to follow that. I know one of my flywheel mag engines specifies a .025" gap, but I don't know about Villiers engines as it's a long time since I've owned one.

Great to hear it's running though, really good news. Just hope the piston isn't damaged from hitting the plug, sounds like you got away with it.

Hi Nutts thanks for the comments.

The plug is a short reach and adding just one extra washer alowed the engine to run OK
so not sure what I can do.
I have a copy of the operating instructions for the miget engines plug gap .025"

Will be a few days before I can work on them again and my pump should be here.
Brian

.025" it is then. Seems to be the norm for flywheel mag engines. I will find out why in Jan or Feb, as I'm going to a talk by a magneto specialist at the local Vintage Motorcycle Club, the guy's renowned here in the whole of the south east, possibly even further afield. I'll be sure to take some notes & report back anything interesting.

As for the plug, I can't make it out I guess if 2 washers works, then 2 washers it will have to be. Can't see it would've done any damage though, sounds like it just kissed it. Maybe they had some special type of plug in those? I can't see it myself, but you never know. It may just be something someone's done to the engine in the past, maybe they've put a different piston in it or something?

Still, it runs! That's the important thing. It's all worth it when they spring into life once again.

make sure there is a head gasket fitted that is a reasonable thickness, that would bring the head up a bit.

spark plugs come in lots of thread lengths or "reaches"

see the list on the left side of this page about 1\2 way down

http://www.gsparkplug.com/shop/spark-plugs/spark-plugs.html

Brian it's strange you say about the piston hitting the plug as I bought a Villiers engine a few years back and that had the same problem. I replaced the plug with a short reach and it was no problem after that. As for the gap mine was set at .025 thou and it ran ok. I never checked it out any more but maybe Neville (hob) has a point about the head gasket as my engine had been worked on. Just goes to show how a dead engine can be a simple fix, just wish they were all that easy .
Well a few days will soon pass so you can play again, your wife will soon be complaining so clear a space in the shed
Looking forward to seeing the pump and engine all set up in a nice display.

Stu.

Neville's got a good point there, we talk about 14mm plugs being either short reach or long reach, but there are others, it may well require a lawnmower plug. The list gets even longer when you take into account 18mm plugs & the various other threads such as pipe thread plugs.

Perhaps, as I said, a lawnmower plug, or even a chainsaw type plug, although many of those will be 10mm.

Oh yes, & the head gasket. Make sure it's actually got one first, you'd be surprised There's a guy down here, local to me, who sells a lot of Villiers spares, he advertises on eBay but I found out where his shop is yesterday, it's a proper old-school lawn mower spares & repair shop, it was like stepping back in time going in there, health & safety would have a fit! He seemed to know where everything was though.

Nuts is this the shop your saying about?

http://www.villiersparts.co.uk/

They do have a good stock of parts for the small engine but I think he's a little high with his prices but if you need the part you have no choice.
As you all know by now I'm tight with money but if you want plugs etc from Greens (as Neville listed) check both the web price and ebay as I've saved a fair bit by shopping between them both.

Stu.

Hi Hob, Stu & Nutts

The villiers midgets engine do not have a seperate removable head so no gasket to change.
Could some- one have put the piston the wrong way round as the do have a sloped top.???
I will have a look at www.gsparkplug to see if there is any information.

I am now 72 years old and enjoy fishing but only go 2 days aweek Tuesday and Thursday but not in winter. So the engines are my winter
activities 2 days a week. I used to rebuild old bubbles cars, scooters ect. but having moved into bungalow with a small garage instead of the large barn I had before, the villiers engines fit in well.

Yes I am looking forward to having an engine running the pump and water flowing into a bucket.

see you all later Brian

villiersblp wrote:Hi Hob, Stu & Nutts

The villiers midgets engine do not have a seperate removable head so no gasket to change.
Could some- one have put the piston the wrong way round as the do have a sloped top.???
I will have a look at www.gsparkplug to see if there is any information.

I am now 72 years old and enjoy fishing but only go 2 days aweek Tuesday and Thursday but not in winter. So the engines are my winter
activities 2 days a week. I used to rebuild old bubbles cars, scooters ect. but having moved into bungalow with a small garage instead of the large barn I had before, the villiers engines fit in well.

Yes I am looking forward to having an engine running the pump and water flowing into a bucket.

see you all later Brian

Ah ha, so we're talking about a Villiers Midget, sorry I missed that bit. I have one of these on a very old ATCO lawnmower. I was told by someone that these were only ever made for & sold to ATCO, & their use as a stationary engine is a more recent thing, due to the amount of old lawnmowers which have rusted away leaving a good engine (also, cylinder mowers have gone completely out of fashion these days). I've no idea how true this is though, so please don't quote me on it, & I'm always ready to be corrected.

The fact remains though that they are a very nice little engine, they run very sweetly. In answer to your question, yes I suppose the piston could be put in back to front, but I'm not sure if it would run like this. If memory serves correctly it's an 18mm plug in these, isn't it? If so it should have the usual 1/2" plug in it. You could add another cylinder base gasket or you could put in a 18mm-to-14mm plug adapter, which would raise it just enough (probably).

I've still got the old lawnmower with my little Villiers engine in it, but it's not in very good condition. It's been sadly neglected & still doesn't reign high on my list of priorities. In fact, until now it wasn't even on the list! Which is pretty disgraceful of me TBH

Next time I'm over my sister's place I'll be sure to uncover it & see about bringing it home. As for the piston, if memory serves (again) the gudgeon pin is a floating pin, with bronze end plugs, on these. The piston is a deflector top type & the small "shelf" of this deflector top should be closest to the transfer port (where the fuel/air mixture comes in) & the sloping "ramp" part should be below the spark plug. But you probably knew that anyway. I would guess, from the plug position on these, if the piston were to be put in back-to-front it would probably hit the plug, exactly as you describe.

BTW, thanks for the little bit of personal info. Welcome to the hobby I love the old bubble cars, I've got a book on them somewhere. My dad's into his vintage & classic motorbikes, we would both love to get more into larger things, but as always space is an issue.

Hope we've all been of some help here.

stationary stu wrote:Nuts is this the shop your saying about?

http://www.villiersparts.co.uk/

They do have a good stock of parts for the small engine but I think he's a little high with his prices but if you need the part you have no choice.
As you all know by now I'm tight with money but if you want plugs etc from Greens (as Neville listed) check both the web price and ebay as I've saved a fair bit by shopping between them both.

Stu.

No, I don't think that's him. He owns a mower shop called "The Mower Centre, Hailsham" & sells parts on eBay under the name "wedgo1". This is what I wanted, & collected yesterday (he has plenty of these if anyone needs one BTW, I can always collect for you to save a little postage)....

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Stationary-engine-fuel-petrol-tap-plunger-/261122166185?pt=UK_Collectables_Agricultural_RL&hash=item3ccc180da9

It was very strange going in there, he serves through a small hatch, like a serving hatch from kitchen to dining room. The customer area is piled high with boxes & old lawnmowers, literally just enough room for about 3 friendly people. I told him what I wanted & he reached behind himself (there was even less room on his side), plunged his arm into a pile of stuff on a shelf, wriggled it around a bit & pulled out a big bag of petrol tap plungers, all with corks. He's obviously got a system, but when he goes I think his system will go with him. very "old-school" indeed & good to see people like that still trading.

Was going to say same about piston deflector either piston or cylinder round wrong way spark plug could use champion D16 they seem to work well in villiers engine are readily available and cheap. Also meetens are helpful and a bit cheaper for villier parts if they stock parts for midget which they probably do .
Was interested to see comments about the guy in Hailsham must try get a visit there sounds great.

I think the piston will only go into the cylinder one way unless the whole barrel has been turned, not sure if that's possible or not. There must be something that can be done to change the plug so it doesn't foul the piston, looks like you'll have to investigate further and let us know your findings.

Yes it's great finding these small gem shops that's never changed in years and the owners have that much knowledge it's unbelievable. I wonder how they manage to survive in today's financial market place as there overheads must be high and not have that much of a turn over.

Stu.

Hi all.... The pump came today a little smaller than I had though but should be OK with my villiers engine.
Its bronz body, brass fittings and a metal base. Should look good when cleaned, polished and painted etc.

I will be looking out for v belt pulleys, the pump has a 15mm drive shaft. and the one for the engine will have to be a tapered bore, not sure what dia. I will require as yet.

Some years ago we had one of those shops that sold every thing and we could always find that little thing you needed but could not find in the big stores. But they all close in time, because we do not use the all the time.


Brian

Sorry I don't have a migdet but have two 25c engines one of which is dismatled have just had a look and it is possible to to put cylinder on wrong way round and I'm quiet sure one was when I got them I intend getting that up and running at some point as I do love a two stroke .
It will be a sad day when all the small repair shops have gone

As for pulleys & belts, there are plenty of on line suppliers. I can recommend one in particular, that is "Belting Online" (here's the link: http://www.beltingonline.com
I find their website one of the easiest to use, with plenty of technical diagrams. The easiest system is the "Taperlock Bush" pulley & cog system, basically there are a number of different bushes which fit the shaft, the pulleys are made to fit these bushes. It makes the whole thing more simple to get together (as in finding the correct parts). Also, the pulleys are available in all standard sizes, then you can order the bush with either a metric or imperial shaft bore size to suit.

I find the people at Belting Online are very helpful too, I recently emailed them about a new fan belt for my Tarpen project & they replied within an hour with an answer to my question. their prices are very reasonable too, & their pulleys don't look too modern, I gave mine a coat of primer & painted it to suit the engine. Some of them are even spoked.