Scott Generating Set Restoration (Continues)

nickh wrote:

neil (LE) wrote:Update for nickh and for the interest of others. I watched the the ebay auction for the magneto you bought to my attention........

.........The main reason I considered this was something worth bidding on, was the fact it was a fully screened type, including the remote cut-out switch, only fitted to radio frequency interference suppressed units, as used on the Scott generators. This type is not often available, as they were not that common in their day, less so now.

It was the base plate which caught my eye - PAB specific type isn't it?

Yes, nickh, it's the PAB specific one, rarely seen.

Yes, it is certainly identical to the original magnetos I have on my other Scott/Jowett engines. A really lucky find, especially as it seems to be in good working order. It was a risk purchase but thanks to Nick, I got to know about it and was able to bid on it. The fact I was the only bidder, also meant I was able to acquire it at what I considered to be a reasonable price.

Hopefully it will soon be fitted to a Scott or Jowett engine, where it belongs.

Thanks Nick,

Neil.

Trailer Dilemma

Having now satisfied myself that the engine is viable and running as well as I can expect it to at this stage, I can now turn my attention to building the complete set back up together. To do so, I need to make a decision on what to mount the unit it on and how to achieve it.

My Jowett is mounted on fixed cast iron wheels, which although they work, do look a little agricultural. Also, it obviously means the set has to be loaded onto a trailer to be transported. For the Scott I have considered directly mounting the unit onto a trailer, for transportation and display purposes. However, as I didn't want to have to purchase anything new, I considered adapting what I already had available. This turned out to be a standard 3 ft x 5 ft box trailer, currently in pieces and rather rusty or a new and so far, unused, single bike trailer.



Jowett set on cast iron wheels. A little agricultural but provides a good viewing height.


The standard box trailer might seem the easier option but it is just a frame with no wheels, floor or wooden side panels. I also think the set would not sit well as a display, so I might still need to be able to remove it from the trailer to show it, so I would be back to square one!

The bike trailer was originally purchased to take my bikes to rallies and shows with the wife, as she doesn't drive. Unfortunately, due to the issues over the last couple of years, the trailer has not been used but will need to be available for future use.

With this in mind I started to consider how to mount the set onto the trailer without compromising its future use as a bike trailer. Although its wheel base is quite wide, the actual frame is narrow and with the base of the Scott being thin sheet metal, I needed to provide some support for the chassis bed plate to sit on. Luckily, I had to hand some lengths of railway signalling point rodding which I could repurpose to create a new sub-frame for the set to sit on.

However, before I went down this road, I needed to establish the actual weight of the Scott. The trailer is rated at 250 Kgs and I had previously guessed the set weighed between 250 and 350 Kgs, so would be too heavy for the trailer. None of the documentation I have, states the weight of the sets. So, as I didn’t have the capability to weigh the complete unit, I resorted to using bathroom scales to check the weight of the individual sub-assemblies.

This produced the following results: -

Bed plate 19Kgs, Engine including exhaust system 72Kgs, Alternator including exciter 68Kgs, Canopy less meter bay 38Kgs. Total 197Kgs or approximately 4cwt. Allowing for some error and additional fixtures and fittings, there should still be some spare load capacity available.

I could now start to assemble the trailer and see how the set could be positioned and fitted without compromising the original bike use.




Point rodding sub-frame positioned on bike trailer frame.




Bed plate positioned on sub-frame and trailer.




Elevated onto its wheels. Going up!




Front view showing the clamping arrangement, avoiding any drilled holes in the bike trailer. Rear clamp still to be made, if I proceed with this concept.






Canopy temporarily fitted, to check on height of set for display purposes. Possibly too high for display purposes?


Decision still to be made, any thoughts?

More to follow…..

Neil.

Tuson report states that original bofors gun gen set request for tender specified a maximum weight of 400lb. However, none of the submissions were able to meet that requirement and the (un-named) two-stroke single unit came in at 500lb.

Nick, thanks for the feedback. Unfortunately I'm not familiar with the Tuson report, or what it details but I would be interested to know more.

Interestingly my estimate of 200 Kgs or 441 lbs, which excluded the final items yet to be fitted to the canopy, including the meters, circuit breaker and connection box, is quite close to the quoted 500 lbs, which in turn converts to 227 Kgs. Hopefully this will still provide an acceptable safety margin, if I am to proceed with this approach.

Neil.

https://digital-library.theiet.org/content/journals/10.1049/ji-2.1947.0164

Looking good on the trailer and the way the wheels are attached stops them blocking the view of the set. The clamping system you have will allow the set to be moved fore and aft to get the best nosewieght on the hitch.

That's coming on well. IIRC Kim Siddorn had an Enfield set on original trailer. Can't find the pictures now. I'm sure there is details in the back copies of Wessex Engine clubs Cranking newsletter.

Thanks all for your comments. As nobody has suggested that the use of the bike trailer is a bad idea, I think I will proceed along this line, at least until something better becomes available.

Stuart, your idea of being able to adjust the nose weight was something that I had considered in my initial design but in the trial fitting, as shown in the picture, I had clamped the sub-frame to an existing trailer cross member. The idea was to ensure the mounting didn't move along the length of the trailer frame. However using this attachment point put too much weight over the hitch, as the heaviest item on the set is the alternator / exciter unit, which is at the hitch end.

To be able to move the chassis to the correct balance point, I have redesigned the mounting to allow for an amount of movement. Some time ago I found a bag of twenty 16mm bolts knocked down to £2 in B&Q! I have now put these to good use on the trailer mounting brackets.




Original trial fixing, using an existing cross member to clamp to, also using smaller bolts.




Repositioned mounting, no longer attached to the cross member, allowing for an element of movement. Now using 16mm bolts.




The other end mounting. Movement is limited by the cross member, hopefully this will be sufficient. All fittings still need spring washers to ensure they don't work loose.




Rear view of the set, hopefully looking more balanced.


If the correct weight balance cannot be achieved the the set could be mounted the other way around. However there is a slight issue, the trailer frame longitudinal members are not parallel but splay out along their lengths towards the rear. This means the sub-frame cross members and the lower brackets would not fit as drilled and would need to be modified. All brackets and the fittings will be painted to match the set. I may also paint the actual bike trailer itself but I've not decided on that as yet.

The biggest issue I now face, is once I completely build the set onto the trailer, I will not be able to move it to the front of the house. I will therefore have to finish the build on the trailer on the drive, alongside the house.

Not certain when I will be able to start this phase but hopefully soon.....

Neil.

Once you have settled the position, make a plate the right length to pick up the holes in the x member and the clamp bar?

Thanks all, once again, for your observations and suggestions, all useful information.

When I looked at the pictures of the temporary positioning of the set on the trailer, I couldn't help but notice how stark the trailer finish was against the Olive Drab of the set itself. I have therefore embarked on painting the trailer to match and have now got to the classic I've started so I will now need to finish situation!




Rear section of the trailer turning Olive Drab.




Front section still awaiting its turn, due to me awaiting a re-supply of paint.




Had just enough paint left to tackle all the fastenings.

More to come when the paint arrives....

Neil.

The build up begins.

As I had previously mentioned, the actual build up of the set onto the trailer would have to be undertaken on the drive, assuming it would fit. Once the front half of the trailer had been painted, the two halves were carried through the garage and carefully laid out in the only space available, luckily it just fits. Now the final build can take place, however before that can happen, I will need to establish some form of demountable cover, as unfortunately once completed the unit will have to live outdoors, as I do not have any space available inside the garage.




First attempt at laying the trailer out, upside down, as a start to building the set up. The front half of the trailer has been painted, it just doesn't look like it, due to the sun and shade.




The new sub-frame bolted onto the trailer.




Up on its wheels, starting to look more like a military unit.








Generator chassis mounted onto the sub-frame, ready for the really serious stuff to start. Some form of jockey wheels will be fitted for stability, as suggested by the neighbour's cat, once he had taken a close look.


More to come once I have solved the storage issue.......

Neil

Glad to hear your taking advice from next doors cat!

Alan

A cheap heavy gauge barbecue cover (good selection on Ebay) makes a good temporary cover, I have one that's been outside for a couple of years and still waterproof

Alanengine wrote:Glad to hear your taking advice from next doors cat!

Alan

Always good to get a cat scan

BBQ cover ten quid in Argos.

Blue cat, don't know about cat scan but I have had a few pet (Positron Emission Tomography) scans in my time, does that count!    

I have previously used BBQ covers on the Jowett set but that is usually stored inside the van trailer, so it is more a dust cover, unless I take it out at a rally. All the covers I have recently used, tend to deteriorate and degrade rapidly in sunlight and only last a year at the most. Also, as this is likely to be a semi-permanent arrangement, I am hoping to devise a way to construct a lightweight frame for a cover to sit over. I don't think it is a good idea for the cover to actually be in contact with the set, even if there is a separate fabric cover in between. I am therefore looking for a canvas type of material which would fit over a frame to allow an airflow to circulate under the cover, avoiding condensation and dampness building up. In the short term, if nothing else turns up, I will have to look for a BBQ or garden furniture type of cover to enable the rebuild to continue.

Thanks for all the interest and helpful suggestions.

Neil.

Things are really coming together, at last!

Just a quick update, as the rebuild of the set components onto the chassis, is not exactly the most technically exciting part of the restoration. Today I managed to manoeuvre the alternator off the workbench and onto the new trailer mounted chassis. It might sound like quite a simple undertaking but if you consider the fact that the alternator on its own, less the exciter, weighs in at a mighty 120 lbs (54 Kgs) and I am working on my own, then it becomes a more complex and challenging task. I was able to "borrow" the wife's allotment trolley and just managed to lift the alternator off the bench onto it. It was fortunate, that with less than an inch to spare, I was able to get through the garage, without having to move all the bikes out of the way. Once through the garage, it was just a simple case of lifting it onto the frame!




The wife's allotment trolley having manoeuvred the alternator, all 120 lbs of it, through the garage.




Hernia avoided. Alternator repositioned onto the chassis.




Exciter reunited with the alternator, now with a combined weight of 150 lbs / 68 Kgs.




Temporary cover in place.


This was as far as I intended to go but as always I was tempted to see just how easy, or otherwise, it would be to mount the engine into place. It is difficult to explain but the complex nature of the mountings, impossible to reach pipework and the limited access, makes the simple job of positioning the engine, far more difficult than you might imagine. Again this process was not helped by having to do all this single handed but in the end, it was achieved.






Engine fitted and coupled via the flexible drive, to the alternator. Not the easiest task to perform, especially single handed. Now starting to look like a generating set once more.

Coming along nicely, just watch the loading on your "allotment trolley"  i bought a garden trolley with a supposed 400kg capacity, it failed at 200kg

The light is visible at the tunnel end!
Coming on well, you feel like your getting somewhere when things start to get assembled.
Your right about the weight of these parts they can be very deceiving and I find what makes it worse is they usually have parts 'sticking out' like carburetors, exhausts and magneto's which takes the centre of gravity away from your body.
Need a good workout though.

Alan

Robotstar5 wrote:Coming along nicely, just watch the loading on your "allotment trolley"  i bought a garden trolley with a supposed 400kg capacity, it failed at 200kg

Know that feeling, my 400kg sack truck has folded in half....

Having lowered the body on to the wheels it should handle better on the corners I had better check mine as I have loaded it with a load of heavy stuff for a bring and buy.

Maryalice

Thanks for all the comments and advice especially on the trolley. Unfortunately, as can be seen below, the wife's trolley didn't come through the ordeal unscathed, I imagine this might cost me the price of a replacement.




The allotment trolley, bearing the scars of doing battle with the alternator. An injury sustained in a worthy cause, with the end justify the means, well that's what I tried to tell the wife.


To make the sacrifice worthwhile, I decided the best thing to do, would be to progress the work on the set. In my ownership, the engine had never been run coupled to the alternator, so I decided to see if this could be rectified. Not having the canopy fitted, meant that an alternative method of starting had to be developed, especially as the rope start attachment which had been temporarily fitted, was no longer available. In the end, I found that it was possible to use the webbing from a ratchet strap, wrapped around the alternator fan blade, to pull the engine over.  After a couple of attempts and with a little dose of fuel in the cylinder the engine was running, driving the alternator. There was no electrical output, as the exciter was not being driven but the test did prove that mechanically everything seems to be in order. The next phase will be to temporarily wire the alternator to bypass the regulator and all the external controls, to allow for testing to take place, without the wiring loom being in place.





Hopefully, soon to be generating electricity.......

Neil.

Lovely, really wish I kept mine... preferred it to the water cooled Scott SE, but kept that longer as it was more a "proper engine". At least my PAB has gone to be reunited with a Bofors.

Thinking outside the box, or should that be inside, or upside?

I mentioned a little while ago about the need to provide a shelter for the set, as it would have to stay outdoors, due to lack of storage space in the garage. I looked into constructing my own box cover but that would have diverted a lot of time and effort away from the primary objective, of restoring the set. I looked for alternative options and considered using something ready made, or adaptable to the function. In the end I decided that one possibility was to repurpose some form of garden storage. After trawling through many offerings, I found something which looked to be a possibility.

The idea was to utilise a garden storage box but upside down, to cover the complete set to provide weather and physical protection. One item just about fitted the bill, a Keter garden storage box / seat. The overall size was almost perfect but is not necessarily quite deep enough as would have been ideal but near enough to make it worth trying. If it didn't work out it would always be useful in the garden, well that was what I told the wife!




Out with the old in with the new?




Upturned storage box, minus lid, providing the new cover. The depth will not be quite deep enough once the canopy is fitted but should be functional.




Additional cover fitted to provide waterproofing necessary, until the upside joints have been sealed. Proper ratchet straps will be fitted prior to towing the trailer.


Once the set cover issue had been dealt with, it was time to return to the actual set restoration. One issue which was still to be dealt with, was the mounting of the circuit breaker onto the connection box. This was originally mounted using sprung metal bracket, unfortunately these had fractured and although I had attempted to reuse them, it was not a satisfactory resolution.






Original anti-vibration mounting bracket which was fractured. Not necessarily a viable repair!






Instead of using the original sprung metal mountings, rubber anti-vibration mounts have been substituted.


Having replaced the circuit breaker mountings, the rewiring could be progressed.



That's all for now, more to come......

Neil.