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Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by nutgone on Sat Mar 09 2013, 17:52

Thanks John, I will bear that in mind. I quite like making gaskets up with gasket paper, not so keen with metal though as I'm not really tooled up for it. Also, the more holes in a gasket, the harder & more complicated it is to cut, but I probably wouldn't let that stop me trying. I could probably cut a new gasket for this one from Flexoid paper, although I don't think it would last too long (but you do hear stories of people getting away with stuff like that all the time). There's also a tougher material called Tesnit, which could be up to the job, but it's not the easiest stuff to work with, & again I don't know if it's up to a 4 pot engine.

But, this engine is very low compression, only about 5:1 ratio, which equates to about 70psi (give or take 5psi or so) on a compression test. Also, it only revs at about 1000rpm, & with that massive rad & cooling jacket I doubt there's much in the way of working pressure or heat in there, in fact the coolant system is atmospheric pressure, vented, & thermosyphon (although that relies on heat, whereas a pump would probably keep things cooler around the head).

I dunno, maybe the old gasket will do the job. It's just one of those things I don't want to do twice (or 3 times, or 4 times, etc etc). I want to put it all together right the first time. (there's that ideal world again, probably ain't gona happen).

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by Stamford24 on Sat Mar 09 2013, 18:54

I know where theres some lawn mower handles, probably going begging. You would just need some angle then to project the pivot point forward of the axle/trolley end. Again Ive got plenty knocking about here. As for head gasket, if its not too bad, I'd try reusing the old one first.

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by nutgone on Sat Mar 09 2013, 18:58

Think I might have sorted the steering problem out. I'm off to a bike show/autojumble tomorrow & I'm showing my dad's oldest bike, anyway we had to dig it out of the workshop & in doing so I managed to have a good look through a box of old sidecar fittings. What I've made is pretty robust, & may even just be temporary, but will definitely work.

I will upload some pics in a while, I've got them on my phone, just need to put them on photobucket & sort them, into their relevant albums.

BTW, I'm still up for getting some mower handles etc, as I would like to get some more metal stock in. I'm just not in such a hurry for them now.

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by Smitty on Sat Mar 09 2013, 19:29

nutgone wrote:Thanks John, I will bear that in mind. I quite like making gaskets up with gasket paper, not so keen with metal though as I'm not really tooled up for it. Also, the more holes in a gasket, the harder & more complicated it is to cut, but I probably wouldn't let that stop me trying. I could probably cut a new gasket for this one from Flexoid paper, although I don't think it would last too long (but you do hear stories of people getting away with stuff like that all the time). There's also a tougher material called Tesnit, which could be up to the job, but it's not the easiest stuff to work with, & again I don't know if it's up to a 4 pot engine.

But, this engine is very low compression, only about 5:1 ratio, which equates to about 70psi (give or take 5psi or so) on a compression test. Also, it only revs at about 1000rpm, & with that massive rad & cooling jacket I doubt there's much in the way of working pressure or heat in there, in fact the coolant system is atmospheric pressure, vented, & thermosyphon (although that relies on heat, whereas a pump would probably keep things cooler around the head).

I dunno, maybe the old gasket will do the job. It's just one of those things I don't want to do twice (or 3 times, or 4 times, etc etc). I want to put it all together right the first time. (there's that ideal world again, probably ain't gona happen).

Ok Nut,

One more thought...,
When I was in Holland as a teenager, I made a lot of gaskets out of a material called "Klingerit" a black leaded or graphited kind of paper in various thicknesses that worked on just about anything I put it to, and they made head gaskets out of it anyway.

It was available in rolls for the small guy, just to have a market outlet for the store that was connected to the building, and they even cut custom gaskets on a single basis. (Then.)
The building isn't there anymore according to Google, but I know from the grapevine that it is still an active brand of paper.
My mates father at the time owned that company, and it may be world wide now, although I have not been in touch since I moved here. (Good time to check on that for me now that it's come up.)

You may want to check that out, and if not.., nothing lost.

Hope you get 'er done soon as I want to hear that thing run too!

Oh, PS, lol,

If you like I can see if a copper or proper head gasket is available here for it, let me know and I''ll dig.

cheers Mate, John.

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by nutgone on Sat Mar 09 2013, 22:10

Cheers John, it may well be worth seeing if they are available over there. But I know from SmokStak that they aren't very common. Although these engines had a long run, they have been out of production since about 1948.

In fact, that brings me to another interesting point. I thought these engines were introduced in 1923, but it turns out the original engine design dates back to as far as about 1918-1919! Certainly these engines were in production & have patents which can be found easily, dating back to 1920. So at the outside they had a production run of a good 30 years! They also saw active service, as they were even used by the US military (you wouldn't have thought it of such an under stressed domestic power plant), but the engines were only ever coupled to generators, they were never sold for any other purpose. I wonder if mine will like having a pulley fitted & running something from a belt for a change???

So, in answer to your question John, by all means have a look, but please don't waste any valuable time on it on my account. I believe they turn up on eBay over there every so often, but they are priced around US$50, plus shipping.

Anyways, I've been busy uploading some pictures, I'll put them in another post....

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by nutgone on Sat Mar 09 2013, 22:48

OK, so I finally got my axles & finished the trolley....



Everything was a bit tight, so I had to chisel a bit out of the wood to accommodate the steering box & bring the axles in contact with the main chassis rails. I got it fixed though, & I managed to get an M10 (10mm) bolt as the steering pivot in the end....





Also, to stop the axle rotating & stop it moving from side to side I drilled & tapped some holes in the box for some M6 grub screws to hold it in place....



I also wanted to make sure the fixed axle didn't move from side to side, as it is wider than the trolley (partly to keep it in line with the steering axle & partly to give the trolley as much stability as possible). I had a dig around my old electrician's screw box & found some clips used to hold plastic conduit to steel girders, they just went in the gaps to hold the wheels in line....



Now for the steering. I needed something to go in the box. Something rigid. But, I didn't really want a pulling type handle, as I really don't think it's a good idea to pull all this weight about from this point, firstly the steering box is only anchored with a 10mm bolt, which is probably good enough, but it's only going through wood, & that particular piece of the chassis is only attached to the rails by long wood screws either side, although I did add some metal flat plates & right angle brackets, so it might be strong enough, but I would rather it was pulled & pushed by the engine, & only steered by the handle, as much as possible.

Also, this steering handle needs to point upwards, but I would prefer if it had a hinge so it could lay flat. But the hinge should only work in that direction, otherwise it would no longer be a steering handle.

Eventually I found a sort of solution in a box of left over sidecar fittings & I made this up....







I hope you can see what I've done there. I need to make some way of tightening the small straight bit which pokes out of the steering box so it doesn't rotate. It's on a massive nut in there, so maybe I should just put some thread lock on it, as the nut can't rotate inside the box when it's done up.

Apart from that, & maybe the rod is a little on the short side (I have another piece that can go on there with a clamp, but need to find some tube, or even wooden pole, to fit it, which I can then make as long as I like) it will do fine for now, & I've managed to finish off the trolley without spending any more money (which is good, as I didn't have any more money to spend anyway!)

Oh yes, I almost forgot the shots of it all together with the rad in place....





I didn't manage to wheel it out as we've been messing about with my dad's bikes most of the day, getting them ready for this show tomorrow, I'm taking one of them, but not riding it, I've got to drive it there in his car Crying or Very sad .

I also bought myself a set of these the other day (usual story, went to the hardware shop for something, came out with several things)....



So I've been having a little practise (The red on black bits are 2nd coat, the black on green bits are only 1st coat). I bet no one ever did this in the Kohler factory....





I know it's over-restoring, & not the best of jobs (although looks good from a distance) but I don't care. I've got my new artist brushes & I'm gonna use them! Laughing

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by Smitty on Sat Mar 09 2013, 22:57

Man that looks good!

The paint makes it look like new, and the added artists concept of what the Michiganites should have done in the first place fits like a glove,

Get's me all wound up all over again, I'll be back!

Regards, John.

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by kevjhnsn on Sun Mar 10 2013, 02:16

nice job your doing mate
coming along now
cant wait for the finished item posted on here
keep it up
kev


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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by Andrew1971 on Sun Mar 10 2013, 12:44

She is a looker but it dont run YET. Hope she goes as good as she look's.
You missed some paint under the trolly at steering box end Nut's lol! lol!

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by stationary stu on Sun Mar 10 2013, 12:50

Engines looking good Nuts, now we can tell your getting bored and looking for jobs to do. Laughing Laughing Laughing

Stu.

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by nutgone on Sun Mar 10 2013, 20:35

stationary stu wrote:Engines looking good Nuts, now we can tell your getting bored and looking for jobs to do. Laughing Laughing Laughing

Stu.

I know Stu, & I think I've finally run out now, unless I decide to take it apart again, ready for when the parts arrive ( scratch ).

But that ain't going to happen. I need the space in the workshop, so for now she will stay in one piece.

I will be back though, when the bits arrive. But as far as this thread is concerned, it's goodbye for now. Crying or Very sad

(At least, I don't think there's anything else to add. Maybe a fuel tank, or something).

Oh yes, thanks for all the kind words everyone, I can't wait to hear her running as well. cheers bounce

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Fuel Pumps of the Vacuum Kind

Post by nutgone on Tue Mar 12 2013, 23:49

OK, I've thought of something else!

After a recent chat it was bought to my attention that vacuum operated fuel pumps still exist today & are in much use around the globe on cheap Chinese mopeds, motorbikes & ATVs (quad bikes to us lot). I had no idea these existed, but I have had a little search on eBay & found what I think I may have been looking for.

Something like this....



Listing here....

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vacuum-Fuel-Tap-Fuel-Pump-Fuel-Switch-Chinese-50-150cc-Scooter-Moped-New-/160688447457?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts&hash=item2569c71fe1[/URL]

But I think I should go for something a little bigger, so maybe something more like this....



Listing here....

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vacuum-fuel-pump-for-Chinese-125cc-150cc-250cc-Scooter-ATV-Jonway-Jmstar-Znen-/270922082086?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts&hash=item3f1436e726[/URL]

But, can anyone tell me if it will work, & indeed how they work???

At first I got the feeling they were just a boost pump, as most tanks on these machines are mounted above the carbs, but one listing actually says that they will feed a system where the tank is lower.

Also, I would like to know how they work? Will it work with the relatively smooth vacuum provided by a 4 cylinder engine? Or do they work from some other method? I have researched them a bit & I know they work from a vacuum hose attached to the inlet manifold on these machines, but is it as simple as a straight vacuum hose or is it something altogether more complex?

What's foxing me is the size of the pump & how they're managing to get a steady vacuum to produce a pumping action for fuel without sucking up the fuel itself? The old American Stewart Warner & British Autovac systems both required a tank within a tank affair, with a rather complicated float system, incorporating a system of valves. This in turn fed fuel into the outer of the 2 tanks, which then found it's way to the carb under gravity.

I'm only guessing here, but I suppose these modern ones need to be mounted near the tank, rather than near the carb? (I think some of these actually come attached to petrol taps, & as such are mounted directly to the tank). It's not a problem, I can run a vacuum hose to it, but would rather have something near the carb if possible.

Also, as there will be no vacuum on start-up, I suppose I will have to have some kind of priming device for starting (that's the trouble with speed governed stationary engines & manifold vacuum, as they start on open throttle there is no vacuum)

I would very much like to mount the tank lower down, & the tank I have would easily mount onto the trolley (I think). Either way, I don't like the look of the tank bolted to the cylinder head like it was, I think it ruins the look of the engine completely. I was going to buy one of the new, ultra small, low pressure, low consumption fuel pumps, power that by a small lead acid battery & charge that with a small solar cell or Peltier thermal generator off the engine, but although the parts are reasonably cheap on their own, these things all add up when put together & there's no telling how reliable the system would be & how well it would work. I can still use it as a plan B though, with the gravity tank as a plan that's a lot further down the alphabet.

So, does anyone have any knowledge of these devices, maybe how they work, & if it will work for me?

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by blackvanman on Wed Mar 13 2013, 01:09

It's a simple diaphragm pump, 2 chambers side by side with a membrane/diaphragm separating them. On one side there is a hole in the chamber and a return spring (some don't have a spring), on the other side 2 non return valves 1 in 1 out. Apply a pulse of vacuum to the side with the hole it draws the diaphragm sucking fluid in through the inlet non return in the 2nd chamber, as it relaxes between pulses any fluid in the 2nd chamber is forced out via the outlet non return.

You can put it where you like within reason.
1st one will be no good to you though, it is a tap pure and simple, 1 in 1 out, and a diaphragm valve opened by vacuum.

There will always be vacuum even on open throttle, it doesn't take much to work a diaphragm pump, if need be you can add a bulb pump inline for priming, but I doubt you'll need it.

They are still in use in lots of outboard engines, and even used on commercial dishwasher and glasswasher rinse aid dosing systems (my line of work), but in this case the pulse is provided by water on the machines inlet cycle.

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by nutgone on Wed Mar 13 2013, 11:50

Cheers, so it should work then? I had a feeling these were more like that than the old fashioned vacuum pump. But I thought these needed more of a pulse to operate (like the ones built into many 2 stroke carbs on small machines) & I'm not so sure a 4 cylinder engine will provide that?

I wondered if any of these had a valve built in so that when the diaphragm was sucked in/out to it's limit something operated to let off the vacuum, letting the spring push/pull it back, pumping the fuel & starting it off again.

Anyway, I will probably get one of those then (the ATV one, the 2nd one I listed) they're only a tenner, so worth a try. I will probably get a priming bulb as well, although it won't be difficult to take the top off the float chamber & fill it up before starting.

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by stationary stu on Wed Mar 13 2013, 12:21

I don't think you'll have a problem at starting as it will have non return valves fitted so the fuel is there as soon as the engine is turned over.

The first pump might be a bit to small it's only for a single cylinder 50cc-150cc engine you'll need to find one that will pump enough fuel for a 4 cylinder so as it doesn't cause fuel starvation.

Stu.

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by blackvanman on Wed Mar 13 2013, 15:04

stationary stu wrote:I don't think you'll have a problem at starting as it will have non return valves fitted so the fuel is there as soon as the engine is turned over.

The first pump might be a bit to small it's only for a single cylinder 50cc-150cc engine you'll need to find one that will pump enough fuel for a 4 cylinder so as it doesn't cause fuel starvation.

Stu.
The first ones not a pump Stu its a vacuum operated fuel cock Smile

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by blackvanman on Wed Mar 13 2013, 15:07

nutgone wrote:Cheers, so it should work then? I had a feeling these were more like that than the old fashioned vacuum pump. But I thought these needed more of a pulse to operate (like the ones built into many 2 stroke carbs on small machines) & I'm not so sure a 4 cylinder engine will provide that?

I wondered if any of these had a valve built in so that when the diaphragm was sucked in/out to it's limit something operated to let off the vacuum, letting the spring push/pull it back, pumping the fuel & starting it off again.

Anyway, I will probably get one of those then (the ATV one, the 2nd one I listed) they're only a tenner, so worth a try. I will probably get a priming bulb as well, although it won't be difficult to take the top off the float chamber & fill it up before starting.

The only concern I may have with the second one is that it locks like its designed for a single cylinder 2 stroke and as such will have no return spring for the diaphragm and crank case pressure of the piston on a down stroke would provide positive pressure.

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by nutgone on Wed Mar 13 2013, 16:27

I dunno, I'm now getting a lot of people saying these diaphragm pumps won't work at all as there's no pulse to the vacuum in a 4 cylinder engine.

So I don't know weather to spend the money & gamble on it working, or not???

I think the 250cc one (the 2nd one I put up) would provide enough fuel for this engine, it's only a small engine really, 5hp max, so shouldn't use a huge amount of fuel.

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by nutgone on Wed Mar 13 2013, 22:43

Sorry Andy, I didn't see your latest replies when I wrote the one above.

I really don't know where to go now on this idea. Might have to have a re-think. The guy from Canada has let me know he still has the original, old style, vacuum fuel feed device from his parts engine, but he doesn't say if he's willing to part with it. he was very generous with the other bits, asking for very little money & payment only on receipt of the goods. Also, he's 80 years old, I don't want to put him to any trouble or make him feel awkward in any way. I suppose I could ask him if he's willing to sell the vacuum device, & say I'd be prepared to pay reasonable market value for it. They don't fetch a lot on eBay over here, I've seen 2 of the British equivalent (Autovac) units go recently for around the £30 mark. I also know you can still get the seals & gaskets for the American ones, & this one still has the mounting bracket, so would just bolt straight on.

I'll ask him, politely. Tell him if it's too much trouble then not to bother. never hurts to ask, I just don't like to feel like I'm taking the p*ss.

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by stationary stu on Thu Mar 14 2013, 11:57

Nuts I can see you don't want to take advantage but you have to ask, as the good engine parts he has now is just scrap to anyone else if anything serious happens to him, then the parts will be lost forever.

Stu.

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by nutgone on Thu Mar 14 2013, 13:02

Yeah, I've asked him. It would be nice to get the correct part on there. He's quite enthusiastic about me getting this one running, so he may be willing to go to the trouble of packaging it up & sending it off. I've started the ball rolling by offering him $50. See what he says.

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by stationary stu on Fri Mar 15 2013, 13:36

Sometimes it's not the case of selling it, it's the distance to the post office as it could be a distance away as it's not like the UK with one on every other street corner just about. (I've about 6+ within about 5 miles).

Good luck and I hope you manage to get the parts you need.

Stu.

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by nutgone on Fri Mar 15 2013, 14:24

He's told me not to worry about the fuel pump, he will save it for me. He wants me to concentrate on getting the engine running first (& probably wants paying for the bits he's already sent as well, although he has said to pay on receipt of the goods, & I've no idea how he wants paying? scratch )

But he's right, there could be a million & one other problems with this engine. I really need to get it running first.

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by Andrew1971 on Fri Mar 15 2013, 14:33

Hi Nut's
One thing at a time sort that out then move to the next and so on it you get a awesome engine when finished :thumbup: :thumbup:
Andew

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by nutgone on Fri Mar 15 2013, 14:42

Yeah, I often like to try & run before I can walk. Embarassed

Anyway, it'll be 4 weeks next Wednesday since the parts were sent off, apparently the post office in Canada said they would take about 4 weeks to get here, so if customs have left them alone I might be very close to getting them now. bounce

Trouble is I got bored & have pulled out my Stuart Turner P6. I've started the ball rolling to get the parts needed for that as well, so I'm guessing it will all turn up at once. That's usually the way with these things. Think the Kohler will take precedence over the Stuart though. Very Happy

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Re: Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

Post by Sponsored content Today at 05:42


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